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Jesus Christ ~ YHVH come in the flesh
#11
Nachshon Wrote:That's because no man is perfect so there is no real reason to argue the point.

It is good that you realize, from the Tanach that no man is perfect. We hope you will go on from here to realize one day that the Son of God is perfect.

Now I know you love the Tanach, as I too, so I would point to a particular passage of prophecy -

Isaiah 32:1,2 - "Indeed a King will reign according to righteousness, and the rulers will rule according to justice.

And a man will be like a refuge from the wind and a covering from the tempest, Like streams of water in a dry place, Like the shadow of a massive rock in a wasted land."


This Man is the Messiah. With Him are those who follow Him to be co-rulers. But this man is as a massive Rock - as God Himself as a man. And in this perfect man's shadow the coming world may rest from the "heat" of the wasted land of a sin filled earth.

This Man is Yeshua and is perfection.
#12
In Ezekiel 45 ‘the prince’ is differentiated from ‘the princes’ of 45:8-9 however ‘the prince’ only furnishes or provides (pays for) the sacrifices and offerings for the people (and himself) he does not present or make the sacrifices or offerings that duty is reserved for the priests ‘who minister in the sanctuary and approach the LORD to minister to him’ because this ‘prince’ does not function as the High Priest and does not intrude upon the duties of the other priests he is therefore not the LORD Jesus Christ who is the Great High Priest of the order of Melchizedek, the Author and Finisher of the true Faith.

Question: when did the Nations rebel against David? Psalm 2.

In Psalm 22 the references to the humanity of Christ are verified by the NT witnesses and while David was certainly human when did he experience the events depicted in the remainder of the Psalm?

True Christianity never claimed that Jesus was ‘a’ god – on the contrary – true Christianity declares that Jesus IS ‘the’ God – YHVH come in the flesh.
#13
(10-23-2013, 08:27 AM)HumblePetitioner Wrote: In Ezekiel 45 ‘the prince’ is differentiated from ‘the princes’ of 45:8-9 however ‘the prince’ only furnishes or provides (pays for) the sacrifices and offerings for the people (and himself) he does not present or make the sacrifices or offerings that duty is reserved for the priests ‘who minister in the sanctuary and approach the LORD to minister to him’ because this ‘prince’ does not function as the High Priest and does not intrude upon the duties of the other priests he is therefore not the LORD Jesus Christ who is the Great High Priest of the order of Melchizedek, the Author and Finisher of the true Faith.
Then you acknowledge that sacrifices exist in the future and Yeshua's death wasn't the final sacrifice. OK.

(10-23-2013, 08:27 AM)HumblePetitioner Wrote: Question: when did the Nations rebel against David? Psalm 2.
I guess your not aware of the wars that David fought.

(10-23-2013, 08:27 AM)HumblePetitioner Wrote: In Psalm 22 the references to the humanity of Christ are verified by the NT witnesses and while David was certainly human when did he experience the events depicted in the remainder of the Psalm?
Not just mere humanity, Yeshua is not G-d, Psalm 22:10. Psalm 22:16 doesn't say in the Hebrew "pierced", but like a lion. So, the whole Psalm talls about David, his life, his enemies, his deliverance by G-d.

(10-23-2013, 08:27 AM)HumblePetitioner Wrote: True Christianity never claimed that Jesus was ‘a’ god – on the contrary – true Christianity declares that Jesus IS ‘the’ God – YHVH come in the flesh.
What Christainity claims and reality are two difference things.
Deut 32:4 says G-d is sinless, so He can't take on sin. There's no reason for the incarnation Smile
#14
A Note on Verse 16

Some wish to translate the verse as “like a lion, my hands and my feet,” instead of “they pierced my hands and my feet.” The former is based on the pointing of the Masoretic text and the latter on the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Hebrew text that preceded the Masoretic text by over one thousand years, and hence closer to the original writing. While it is true that the writer uses several animal motifs in the context, the Psalmist only uses animalistic terms to describe his enemies and not himself. Hence both the context and the antiquity of the Hebrew text behind the Septuagint favor the rendering of “pierce.”

Psalm 22 teaches that:

In extreme agony, Messiah would cry out for God's help.
Messiah would be a despised and rejected individual.
In the agony of death Messiah would be stared at and mocked.
The Messiah's bones would all be pulled out of joint.
The Messiah's heart would rupture.
The Messiah would suffer an extreme degree of thirst.
Messiah's hands and feet would be pierced.
Messiah's clothing would be divided by the casting of lots.
At the point of death, Messiah's trust would be in God the Father.
Messiah would be resurrected.
#15
There were Temple sacrifices made for 30-40 years after Jesus went to the cross - any future sacrifices will be of the same effect as those were.

It is clear that the rebellion of the nations against the LORD and His Anointed spoken of in Psalm 2 has nothing to do with David’s puny exploits but of that future Day of Judgment when the LORD will wield a rod of iron and break the nations.

Point to any events in David’s life that even slightly compare to the horrors described in Psalm 22. The word ‘like a lion’ does not even make sense in the context whereas ‘pierced’ makes perfect sense. This is just another case of the Hebrew being rendered to conform with tradition.

YHVH is perfect and holy – sinless as you say – Jesus too is sinless and perfectly holy but YHVH was pleased to place the guilt of the sin of all the world on the man Jesus so that He might be both just and the justifier of all those who would trust in Him.
#16
Eze:45:22: And upon that day shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock for a sin offering.

Won't happen because they didn't listen. Yeshua went to the cross. He is the final sacrifice.
They may try it again before His return but it will be of no value to their redemption.

Eze:3:7: But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel are impudent and hardhearted.

The prince cannot be David as David knows what His Messiah did for him. It was conditional that they obey God.
#17
(10-23-2013, 01:07 PM)Tanachreader Wrote: Eze:45:22: And upon that day shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock for a sin offering.

Won't happen because they didn't listen. Yeshua went to the cross. He is the final sacrifice.
They may try it again before His return but it will be of no value to their redemption.

Eze:3:7: But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel are impudent and hardhearted.

The prince cannot be David as David knows what His Messiah did for him. It was conditional that they obey God.
As I told you before, keep reading the whole book. It keeps getting better. I already gave you this answer.

(Ezek 16:60-63 [KJV])
60 Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.
61 Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant.
62 And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD:
63 That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.

I never said the prince was David in Ezek 45. But, we do see in Isa 9:6(5) that part of the name of Hezekiah was prince of peace (isn't this a funny title if you think this is G-d?). Please see the thread "Yeshua and Isaiah 9:6(5)" for more details and how this ties into Ezek 45 and the peace offerings in Ezek 45:17 offered by the "prince of peace [offerings]".

(10-23-2013, 12:51 PM)HumblePetitioner Wrote: YHVH is perfect and holy – sinless as you say – Jesus too is sinless and perfectly holy but YHVH was pleased to place the guilt of the sin of all the world on the man Jesus so that He might be both just and the justifier of all those who would trust in Him.
Nope. Hashem doesn't take on sin. Contradictions!

(Deut 32:4 [KJV])
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

J-man was abandoned at the cross because he had sin on him, as you say. Then, he is not G-d. Pretty simple. Please see the thread "Yeshua died a divine god-man".

(10-23-2013, 12:40 PM)Tanachreader Wrote: A Note on Verse 16

Some wish to translate the verse as “like a lion, my hands and my feet,” instead of “they pierced my hands and my feet.” The former is based on the pointing of the Masoretic text and the latter on the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Hebrew text that preceded the Masoretic text by over one thousand years, and hence closer to the original writing. While it is true that the writer uses several animal motifs in the context, the Psalmist only uses animalistic terms to describe his enemies and not himself. Hence both the context and the antiquity of the Hebrew text behind the Septuagint favor the rendering of “pierce.”

Psalm 22 teaches that:

In extreme agony, Messiah would cry out for God's help.
Messiah would be a despised and rejected individual.
In the agony of death Messiah would be stared at and mocked.
The Messiah's bones would all be pulled out of joint.
The Messiah's heart would rupture.
The Messiah would suffer an extreme degree of thirst.
Messiah's hands and feet would be pierced.
Messiah's clothing would be divided by the casting of lots.
At the point of death, Messiah's trust would be in God the Father.
Messiah would be resurrected.
A note on your note. Being that the original Septuagint consisted of only the Torah (first 5 books), it is known that what passes as the Septuagint today is not the same thing.

I'm glad to see you're not using your "scrap" to defend your J-man with female hands position.
#18
The covenant from the days of Israel's youth refers to the Abrahamic promise, and not to the Mosaic covenant which God said Israel had broken when they fled Egypt in as written:
Jer:31:32: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

"Yet thou wast naked and bare ..." (Ezekiel 16:7). "This represents the days of their sojourn in Egypt, before the Sinaitic covenant."

As for the Psalm scrap you are desperate in seeking Tovia Singer's help at
outreachjudaism. Did they use a magic marker, or MSPaint to show an enhanced Psalm scrap?Big Grin No scholar believes it is "her hands". HA!

The first 5 books are always written first!
#19
the Tanakh did not officially become the Tanakh until around 1000 CE - likewise the LXX was not officially the LXX until much later then the translation of the Torah - but that does not make those books that were translated after the Torah of less value to the understanding of what the Hebrew actually contained before the masorah were added
#20
(10-24-2013, 09:33 AM)Tanachreader Wrote: The covenant from the days of Israel's youth refers to the Abrahamic promise, and not to the Mosaic covenant which God said Israel had broken when they fled Egypt in as written:
Jer:31:32: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

"Yet thou wast naked and bare ..." (Ezekiel 16:7). "This represents the days of their sojourn in Egypt, before the Sinaitic covenant."

As for the Psalm scrap you are desperate in seeking Tovia Singer's help at
outreachjudaism. Did they use a magic marker, or MSPaint to show an enhanced Psalm scrap?Big Grin No scholar believes it is "her hands". HA!

The first 5 books are always written first!
There was no covenant with Israel in Abraham's time, only a covenant with Abraham and Noah's descendants after the flood.

As to the Psalm 22 scrap, what scholars are you talking about, Dr, Flint? Elisha Qimron is said to have written that "some" Qumran scrolls use a "Hey" as a final dipthong for words. Without looking at his books, it doesn't sound like a definitive agreement for Dr. Flint's or your position. Qimron said nothing about Psalm 22 specifically, did he? By the way, I wasn't the one who brought the scrap into discussion, I think that was your desperation. Understanding that there is a spelling error in the scrap is not without merit if you look at passages like Gen 16:9; 24:22; and 24:47, which have the same Hebrew spelling for hands and it is rendered as "her hands".

And again, if you look at the context of the whole Psalm 22, and specifically verse 21 where "the lions mouth" is referenced, you can see verse 16 should be understood as refering to "like a lion at my hands and feet".


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