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Jesus Christ ~ YHVH come in the flesh
#31
Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

OK ~ the word translated ‘the LORD’ [YHVH] IS SINGULAR ~ the word translated ‘our God’ [a form of elohim] IS PLURAL but is always translated SINGULAR when it refers to YHVH ~ the word translated ‘the LORD’ [YHVH] IS SINGULAR (just thought I’d repeat myself so there is no misunderstanding) ~ the word translated ‘is one’ [a form of echad] IS SINGULAR but can refer to a ‘singular unity’ and not only to a simple ‘singular unit’ ~ these are the FACTS but how one chooses to view these FACTS will be based on one’s understanding of the TRUTH underlying these FACTS.

Jesus claimed to be the TRUTH ~ I believe Him ~ therefore I view the above FACTS from the vantage point of knowing Him as the TRUTH.

Matt 4:10 Then Jesus said to him, "Be gone, Satan! For it is written, "'You shall worship the LORD your God and Him only shall you serve.'"

Jesus spoke of Hashem in the SINGULAR because He and I both understand that there is only one true God and His name is YHVH, the LORD.
#32
(11-18-2013, 10:49 AM)HumblePetitioner Wrote: Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

OK ~ the word translated ‘the LORD’ [YHVH] IS SINGULAR ~ the word translated ‘our God’ [a form of elohim] IS PLURAL but is always translated SINGULAR when it refers to YHVH ~ the word translated ‘the LORD’ [YHVH] IS SINGULAR (just thought I’d repeat myself so there is no misunderstanding) ~ the word translated ‘is one’ [a form of echad] IS SINGULAR but can refer to a ‘singular unity’ and not only to a simple ‘singular unit’ ~ these are the FACTS but how one chooses to view these FACTS will be based on one’s understanding of the TRUTH underlying these FACTS.
Echad can refer to one or a plurality, just like yachid. Context determines the usage. Since Deut 6:6 shows Hashem being singular, then we we know He is as well in the Shema. This is the TRUTH that you are disregarding.
#33
(11-18-2013, 12:12 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(11-18-2013, 10:49 AM)HumblePetitioner Wrote: Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

OK ~ the word translated ‘the LORD’ [YHVH] IS SINGULAR ~ the word translated ‘our God’ [a form of elohim] IS PLURAL but is always translated SINGULAR when it refers to YHVH ~ the word translated ‘the LORD’ [YHVH] IS SINGULAR (just thought I’d repeat myself so there is no misunderstanding) ~ the word translated ‘is one’ [a form of echad] IS SINGULAR but can refer to a ‘singular unity’ and not only to a simple ‘singular unit’ ~ these are the FACTS but how one chooses to view these FACTS will be based on one’s understanding of the TRUTH underlying these FACTS.
Echad refer to one or a plurality, just like yachid. Context determines the usage. Since Deut 6:6 shows Hashem being singular, then we we know He is as well in the Shema. This is the TRUTH that you are disregarding.
nonsense - if you do not know Jesus you do not know the TRUTH ~ of course you need to prove that your viewpoint is the only acceptable viewpoint but all I need to do is believe that Jesus is the TRUTH.

1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

echad always refers to something that is singular or one except that that one thing may contain more than one element such as the oneness of the married couple or the oneness of the language and accord before the confusion at Babel ~ there is a oneness of Spirit and accord of the Godhead (Deity) of YHVH that is explained and unveiled in the life and teaching of Jesus.
#34
(11-18-2013, 12:31 PM)HumblePetitioner Wrote:
(11-18-2013, 12:12 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(11-18-2013, 10:49 AM)HumblePetitioner Wrote: Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

OK ~ the word translated ‘the LORD’ [YHVH] IS SINGULAR ~ the word translated ‘our God’ [a form of elohim] IS PLURAL but is always translated SINGULAR when it refers to YHVH ~ the word translated ‘the LORD’ [YHVH] IS SINGULAR (just thought I’d repeat myself so there is no misunderstanding) ~ the word translated ‘is one’ [a form of echad] IS SINGULAR but can refer to a ‘singular unity’ and not only to a simple ‘singular unit’ ~ these are the FACTS but how one chooses to view these FACTS will be based on one’s understanding of the TRUTH underlying these FACTS.
Echad refer to one or a plurality, just like yachid. Context determines the usage. Since Deut 6:6 shows Hashem being singular, then we we know He is as well in the Shema. This is the TRUTH that you are disregarding.
nonsense - if you do not know Jesus you do not know the TRUTH ~ of course you need to prove that your viewpoint is the only acceptable viewpoint but all I need to do is believe that Jesus is the TRUTH.

1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

echad always refers to something that is singular or one except that that one thing may contain more than one element such as the oneness of the married couple or the oneness of the language and accord before the confusion at Babel ~ there is a oneness of Spirit and accord of the Godhead (Deity) of YHVH that is explained and unveiled in the life and teaching of Jesus.
I'm not debating that echad means one or a unity, depending on context. You argued before that yachid (from your favorite website) was used exclusively for an absolute one. I proved you wrong with all of the verses I provided. Please go back and read.

Echad in Deut 6:4 means exclusively one, with no plurality implied. Just read Deut 6:6.

If you do not know Torah, then you do not know the truth, Psalm 119:142.
#35
(11-18-2013, 02:52 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(11-18-2013, 12:31 PM)HumblePetitioner Wrote:
(11-18-2013, 12:12 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(11-18-2013, 10:49 AM)HumblePetitioner Wrote: Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

OK ~ the word translated ‘the LORD’ [YHVH] IS SINGULAR ~ the word translated ‘our God’ [a form of elohim] IS PLURAL but is always translated SINGULAR when it refers to YHVH ~ the word translated ‘the LORD’ [YHVH] IS SINGULAR (just thought I’d repeat myself so there is no misunderstanding) ~ the word translated ‘is one’ [a form of echad] IS SINGULAR but can refer to a ‘singular unity’ and not only to a simple ‘singular unit’ ~ these are the FACTS but how one chooses to view these FACTS will be based on one’s understanding of the TRUTH underlying these FACTS.
Echad refer to one or a plurality, just like yachid. Context determines the usage. Since Deut 6:6 shows Hashem being singular, then we we know He is as well in the Shema. This is the TRUTH that you are disregarding.
nonsense - if you do not know Jesus you do not know the TRUTH ~ of course you need to prove that your viewpoint is the only acceptable viewpoint but all I need to do is believe that Jesus is the TRUTH.

1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

echad always refers to something that is singular or one except that that one thing may contain more than one element such as the oneness of the married couple or the oneness of the language and accord before the confusion at Babel ~ there is a oneness of Spirit and accord of the Godhead (Deity) of YHVH that is explained and unveiled in the life and teaching of Jesus.
I'm not debating that echad means one or a unity, depending on context. You argued before that yachid (from your favorite website) was used exclusively for an absolute one. I proved you wrong with all of the verses I provided. Please go back and read.

Echad in Deut 6:4 means exclusively one, with no plurality implied. Just read Deut 6:6.

If you do not know Torah, then you do not know the truth, Psalm 119:142.


Proverb:30:3: I neither learned wisdom, nor have the knowledge of the holy.
Proverb:30:4: Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
#36
(11-18-2013, 04:09 PM)Tanachreader Wrote: Proverb:30:3: I neither learned wisdom, nor have the knowledge of the holy.
Proverb:30:4: Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
When did J-sus ever do any of these things? We know there wasn't a massive resurrection event or ascenSion event either to show he went up to heaven.

But Moses did fulfill these things: Ex 19:3 (ascended for the Torah and brought it down), Ex 9:8-10 (winds), Ex 15:8 (water). The rest is rhetorical in line with wisdom. Someone of great stature like Moses doesn't guarantee that those who come after him will follow suite.
#37
(11-18-2013, 10:18 PM)Nachshon Wrote: When did J-sus ever do any of these things? We know there wasn't a massive resurrection event or ascenSion event either to show he went up to heaven.

“No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.’ For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”

The first point to notice here is that Jesus’ comments regarding ascending to and descending from heaven are virtually identical with the words of Agur in Proverbs 30:4. This is very persuasive evidence that Jesus is that very same Divine Son mentioned by Agur.

Secondly, by identifying himself as the Son of Man in the context of his descent from heaven Jesus is clearly affirming his heavenly preexistence. Christ is not simply claiming to be just any ordinary son of man or human being; Jesus is clearly making himself out to be that very same Son of Man whom the prophet Daniel saw and wrote of:

“I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a Son of Man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve/worship him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.” Daniel 7:13-14

This particular Son of Man is a preexistent Divine Being who appears in human form since he rides the clouds and rules forever, all of which are exclusively Divine functions. He even receives the same exact worship which God receives! (Cf. Numbers 10:34; Psalm 104:2-3; Isaiah 19:1; Daniel 3:16-18, 28; 4:34-37; 7:22, 27)

Hence, by claiming to be this very same Son of Man Jesus is basically saying that he is a preexistent Divine Being who came down from heaven.
http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/s...s30_4.html
#38
(11-19-2013, 08:03 AM)Tanachreader Wrote: “No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.’ For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”

The first point to notice here is that Jesus’ comments regarding ascending to and descending from heaven are virtually identical with the words of Agur in Proverbs 30:4. This is very persuasive evidence that Jesus is that very same Divine Son mentioned by Agur.
This passage mentions nothing about the person being divine.

Son of man is used for Ezekial as well and doesn't denote divinity, Ezek 2:1.

(Num 23:19 [KJV])
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
#39
(11-19-2013, 08:26 AM)Nachshon Wrote:
(11-19-2013, 08:03 AM)Tanachreader Wrote: “No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.’ For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”

The first point to notice here is that Jesus’ comments regarding ascending to and descending from heaven are virtually identical with the words of Agur in Proverbs 30:4. This is very persuasive evidence that Jesus is that very same Divine Son mentioned by Agur.
This passage mentions nothing about the person being divine.

Son of man is used for Ezekial as well and doesn't denote divinity, Ezek 2:1.

(Num 23:19 [KJV])
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Yeshua is different than the average joe. He is both Son of God and son of man.

Da:3:25: He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Da:7:13: I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Da:7:14: And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
#40
(11-19-2013, 09:18 AM)Tanachreader Wrote:
(11-19-2013, 08:26 AM)Nachshon Wrote:
(11-19-2013, 08:03 AM)Tanachreader Wrote: “No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.’ For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”

The first point to notice here is that Jesus’ comments regarding ascending to and descending from heaven are virtually identical with the words of Agur in Proverbs 30:4. This is very persuasive evidence that Jesus is that very same Divine Son mentioned by Agur.
This passage mentions nothing about the person being divine.

Son of man is used for Ezekial as well and doesn't denote divinity, Ezek 2:1.

(Num 23:19 [KJV])
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Yeshua is different than the average joe. He is both Son of God and son of man.

Da:3:25: He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Da:7:13: I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Da:7:14: And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
The verses in Daniel draw a distinction between the son of man and the Ancient of days. They are two separate persons - one is a man, and one isn't.

If you're saying J-sus is the son of man, then according to these verses he is not the Ancient of days, and does not fulfill Isa 9:6(5). Thanks again! Smile


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