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Jesus Christ ~ YHVH come in the flesh
#1
In Heb 13:5 it reads ‘for He has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you." These words were spoken by YHVH to Joshua [Joshua 1:5] as an encouragement before he led the people into the land to possess it. But here in Hebrews it is given as an encouragement to believers in Jesus Christ so they should not fear but have confidence in the knowledge that ‘the LORD is a Helper’ [Heb 13:6; Psalm 118:6]. In John 14:16 Jesus, the Son, promises to pray the Father to send the Spirit of Truth as another ‘Helper’ who will forever be with those who believe in Him. In Matt 28:20 Jesus promises to be with His followers forever.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Only YHVH is unchanging and yet the writer of Hebrews clearly identifies Jesus Christ as the unchanging one. It cannot be disputed that the NT clearly identifies Jesus Christ as YHVH and Jesus Christ as a man of flesh even as we are [Romans 8:3] therefore Jesus Christ is YHVH come in the flesh – Immanuel!
#2
(10-17-2013, 07:57 AM)HumblePetitioner Wrote: In Heb 13:5 it reads ‘for He has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you." These words were spoken by YHVH to Joshua [Joshua 1:5] as an encouragement before he led the people into the land to possess it. But here in Hebrews it is given as an encouragement to believers in Jesus Christ so they should not fear but have confidence in the knowledge that ‘the LORD is a Helper’ [Heb 13:6; Psalm 118:6]. In John 14:16 Jesus, the Son, promises to pray the Father to send the Spirit of Truth as another ‘Helper’ who will forever be with those who believe in Him. In Matt 28:20 Jesus promises to be with His followers forever.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Only YHVH is unchanging and yet the writer of Hebrews clearly identifies Jesus Christ as the unchanging one. It cannot be disputed that the NT clearly identifies Jesus Christ as YHVH and Jesus Christ as a man of flesh even as we are [Romans 8:3] therefore Jesus Christ is YHVH come in the flesh – Immanuel!
Psalm 22:9-10 - J-man has changed from an egg/seed combination, to being born, dying, and according to you, being resurrected. This is no god, but a myth.

Hashem doesn't need help, but J-man did. Hebrews 5:7, Psalm 20:6, 28:8.

Read the thread "Yeshua, the virgin birth, and Isaiah 7:14".
#3
(10-17-2013, 07:57 AM)HumblePetitioner Wrote: In Heb 13:5 it reads ‘for He has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you." These words were spoken by YHVH to Joshua [Joshua 1:5] as an encouragement before he led the people into the land to possess it. But here in Hebrews it is given as an encouragement to believers in Jesus Christ so they should not fear but have confidence in the knowledge that ‘the LORD is a Helper’ [Heb 13:6; Psalm 118:6]. In John 14:16 Jesus, the Son, promises to pray the Father to send the Spirit of Truth as another ‘Helper’ who will forever be with those who believe in Him. In Matt 28:20 Jesus promises to be with His followers forever.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Only YHVH is unchanging and yet the writer of Hebrews clearly identifies Jesus Christ as the unchanging one. It cannot be disputed that the NT clearly identifies Jesus Christ as YHVH and Jesus Christ as a man of flesh even as we are [Romans 8:3] therefore Jesus Christ is YHVH come in the flesh – Immanuel!


I agree with this reasoning. I would like to point out that the circumstances of the book of Hebrews and of Joshua are very similar.

Jesus Christ is the Captain of salvation who will not forsake the Hebrew believers in their journey. They are ALSO in a journey. It is not to a physical Canaan Land. It is to the glorious expression of the Divine Life as fully matured sons of God. That is the destination to which they are moving. And its realization is to be accomplished by the time of the second coming and the millennial kingddom.

Where is my evidence for this ? Through out the book of Hebrews. Ie.

"For it is fitting for Him, for whom are all things and through whom are all things, in leading many sons into glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through sufferings."(Heb. 2:10)

Let me unpack this a little:

1.) The destiny if to CO-enjoy all things of the universe which have been created through Christ and FOR Christ.

2.) They have not come yet. They are in the process of being LED into this enjoyment, this co-inheritance with the Son of God. He is "leading" them to this destiny.

3.) Whom He is leading are to be like Him "many sons" . Children must mature into sons. Mature sons become co-heirs. He is "leading many sons into glory."

4.) The glory into which Christ is leading many sons is the glorious expression of the Divine Being. It is for God to be expressed in men. This is glory. He is leading many sons (like Himself) into the glorious expression of the Father's divine life. That is why they are sons.

5.) This glorious expression of God in man is the virtual "Good Land" into which the sons are being led by their New Testament Joshua - Jesus.

6.) The sufferings are mentioned because the sons of God must also pass through sufferings. The sufferings of persecution and all kinds of adverse circumstances drive them deeper into living by Christ. They cannot make it without Him. They must sink their "roots" so to speak, deeper and deeper into Him.

So the example of Christ passing through sufferings is there to encourage them. What an unspeakable honor that saved sinners may ALSO and LIKEWISE pass through adverse situations to live by Christ.This develops them to live out Christ - letting Jesus Christ live again in them.

He will never leave them or forsake them in these trials of growing into maturity.

7.) As their Author was perfected through sufferings so are they. What a privilege to follow Jesus in this way. His being perfected was not to make Him without sin. He was sinless from conception, through birth, and throughout life. Yet He was perfected in suffering.

"to make the Author [some versions say Captain] of their salvation perfect through sufferings."

Christ eagerly looks upon His followers as in some sense they follow in the same path as He walked. What an honor. And what reward beside eternal life, to have followed Christ in this process.

8.) The next verse shows that the Godman and the Godmen are of one - in the same category. If not in EVERY sense (since He is the object of our worship) in important senses - we and He the same.

"For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of One, for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brothers." (v.11)

The believers are called His brothers !! We and He are all of One Father. He sanctifies and we are BEING sanctified. He is not ashamed to call us His brothers.

9.) Since we believers in Christ are His brothers, He comes again as not only the Only begotten Son but the FIRSTborn Son -

Hebrews 1:6 - "Again when He brings the Firstborn into the inhabited earth ..."

He comes again in His second coming now with many brothers. He is the Only begotten Son of God now as the Firstborn among many brothers. Romans 8:29 says the same -

"Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers."

Throughout the process of conformation with its difficulties and sufferings, He will never leave them or forsake them. He is the REAL Joshua leading them to the greater promised land - the mingling of God and man.

10.) Sharing His own life and nature through re-birth and sanctification we become God's children - even the Son of God's children -

" ... He is not ashamed to call them brothers, Saying, I will declare Your name to My brothers; in the midst of the church I will sing hymns of praise to You. And again ... Behold, I and the children whom God has given Me." (See Hebrews 2:11c-13)
#4
Nachshon Wrote:Psalm 22:9-10 - J-man has changed from an egg/seed combination, to being born, dying, and according to you, being resurrected. This is no god, but a myth.

Hashem doesn't need help, but J-man did. Hebrews 5:7, Psalm 20:6, 28:8.

I see you have stopped using J-sus and have resorted to J-man – how amusing.

Jesus was/is both man/God – it is not surprising that references to His humanity will confuse the unenlightened – understand that His humanity was born – lived – died and was resurrected. These wholly human processes did not affect His divinity which was from the beginning – is now – and ever shall be God.

Your misunderstanding of Heb 5:7 has been answered on too many occasions to be dealt with again here. As for Psalm 20 and 28 they are both prayers of supplication for salvation for the people and the sitting King of Israel – the anointed. We both know that the term anointed does not always refer to the Messiah – that special anointed one who would be the Savior / Redeemer of Israel and the whole world.

Your attempt to link Heb 5:7 to Psalm 20 and 28 succeeds in that they are all prayers of supplication for the salvation of 'the people' BUT it fails in that while David made supplication for his own sin, on the other hand, Jesus had no sin to make supplication for [Heb 4:15, 1 John 3:5].
#5
HumblePetitioner Wrote:I see you have stopped using J-sus and have resorted to J-man – how amusing.

For some reason I often feel that there is hope for this Nachshon poster. This drawing back from J-sus to J-man to JC might mask the realization of his conscience that the name is powerful.

JESUS.

If everyone who posts to Nachshon offers a little prayer for God's mercy upon him, perhaps one day he will receive that awesome and terrible name of reality - JESUS . Then he will be saved.

HumblePetitioner Wrote:Jesus was/is both man/God – it is not surprising that references to His humanity will confuse the unenlightened – understand that His humanity was born – lived – died and was resurrected. These wholly human processes did not affect His divinity which was from the beginning – is now – and ever shall be God.

Your misunderstanding of Heb 5:7 has been answered on too many occasions to be dealt with again here. As for Psalm 20 and 28 they are both prayers of supplication for salvation for the people and the sitting King of Israel – the anointed. We both know that the term anointed does not always refer to the Messiah – that special anointed one who would be the Savior / Redeemer of Israel and the whole world.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.


The Recovery Version translates Hebrews 5:7 this way -

"This One, in the days of His flesh, having offered up both petitions and supplications with strong crying and tears to Him who was able to save Him out of death and having been heard because of His piety."

The study note says Jesus' petition for Himself was to be saved OUT of death rather than saved from death. This is a petition to the Father that He would be resurrected OUT of death.

My opinion is that He was a man and did both. He petitioned the Father to be saved from various matters including death. But when He knew it was the will of His Father that He die, His petition was to be saved in resurrection - "out of death."

Exploitations of these human utterances by unbelievers only underscore their bafflement that God became a man - in many senses just like us, yet wholly without sin.

And the failure to see this is also the failure to not appreciate how CLOSE is the relationship that the eternal God desires to have with man. He wanted from the beginning to indwell man and mingle with man in an "organic" union.

Then He became a man to take the Lead to accomplish this eternal purpose.
#6
εκ θανατου - out of death, from death, away from death
ek
Thayer Definition:
1) out of, from, away from
#7
(10-21-2013, 08:16 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote:
HumblePetitioner Wrote:Jesus was/is both man/God – it is not surprising that references to His humanity will confuse the unenlightened – understand that His humanity was born – lived – died and was resurrected. These wholly human processes did not affect His divinity which was from the beginning – is now – and ever shall be God.

Your misunderstanding of Heb 5:7 has been answered on too many occasions to be dealt with again here. As for Psalm 20 and 28 they are both prayers of supplication for salvation for the people and the sitting King of Israel – the anointed. We both know that the term anointed does not always refer to the Messiah – that special anointed one who would be the Savior / Redeemer of Israel and the whole world.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.
Actually, I don't think anyone has given a good answer for Hebrews 5:7. The context is a high priest, who offers sacrifices on behalf of his own sins, as well as Israel's.

By using the Greek word "prosenkas", and its usage associated with sacrifices in Heb 10:12, then this is what Yeshua did for himself, and cried out for salvation with supplications, which point to him not being as perfect as people think. Then, there's the issue of Numbers 19 and contact with the dead which show that Yeshua needed cleansing with the waters for purification of sin.

HumblePetitioner Wrote:Your attempt to link Heb 5:7 to Psalm 20 and 28 succeeds in that they are all prayers of supplication for the salvation of 'the people' BUT it fails in that while David made supplication for his own sin, on the other hand, Jesus had no sin to make supplication for [Heb 4:15, 1 John 3:5].
How convenient that the Psalms 20 and 28 do not refer to J-sus, but Psalms like 2, 22, do. You should be consistent and say that these Psalms apply to David as well. Double-standards!
#8
Hebrews 5:7 says "This One, in the days of His flesh, having offered up both petitions and supplications with strong crying and tears to Him who was able to save Him out of death and having been heard because of His piety ..."

These petitions and supplication with strong cryings had nothing to do with His own repentance from any sins committed. We are told in 4:15 that though Jesus was tempted it was ever without Him sinning -

"For we do not have a High Priest who cannot be touched with the feeling of our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all respects like us, yet without sin ..." (Heb. 4:15)

The writer would not turn around in five verses and in 5:3 teach that Jesus offer any priestly offering for His OWN sins.

"And because of it, he [the typical OT high priest] ought, even as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins." (5:3)

Our High Priest Christ did not sin (Heb. 4:15) and had no need to repent of sinning, confess sins, or offer up any offering for His own sins which were non-existent.

He is the real "King of Righteousness" (7:1,2) - the anti-type of whom Melchizedek foreshadowed - "without sin."

As the final universal High Priest Christ is - "holy, guileless, undefiled" - "For such a High Priest was also fitting to us, holy, guileless, undefiled, separated from sinners and having become higher than the heavens." (Heb. 7:20)

Christ is distinct then, from all typical previous priests because He had no need to offer for His own sins -

"Who does not have daily need, as the high priests do to offer up sacrifices first for his own sins and then for those of the people; ..." (7:27)

He does not need to offer up sacrifices for his own sins.
He does not need to daily do so for Himself.
He does not need to daily do so for others because He did so ONCE for all time -

"Who does not have daily need, as the high priests do to offer up sacrifices first for his own sins and then for those of the people; for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself." (7:27)

Though we are told that He was perfected and that through obedience, this perfecting has not to do with learning NOT to sin. It is another kind of perfecting constituting Him so sympathetic towards sinners.

"Even though He was a Son, learned obedience from the things which He suffered. And having been perfected, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation ..." (Heb. 5:9)

Previously we were told - "For we do not have a High Priest who cannot be touched with the feeling of our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all respects like us, yet without sin.

Let us therefore come forward with boldness to the throne of grace that we may receive mercy and find grace for timely help." (4:15,16)
#9
Nachshon Wrote:Actually, I don't think anyone has given a good answer for Hebrews 5:7. The context is a high priest, who offers sacrifices on behalf of his own sins, as well as Israel's.

By using the Greek word "prosenkas", and its usage associated with sacrifices in Heb 10:12, then this is what Yeshua did for himself, and cried out for salvation with supplications, which point to him not being as perfect as people think. Then, there's the issue of Numbers 19 and contact with the dead which show that Yeshua needed cleansing with the waters for purification of sin.

How convenient that the Psalms 20 and 28 do not refer to J-sus, but Psalms like 2, 22, do. You should be consistent and say that these Psalms apply to David as well. Double-standards!

The context of much of Hebrews is that of the High Priesthood of Jesus as being of the order of Melchizedek and not of the order of Aaron as a result you cannot make a one-to-one comparison of the two.

The context of Psalm 20 & 28 was the timeframe during which they were written and not prophetic to any degree BUT the context of Psalm 2 & 22 cannot be limited to the timeframe of their writing as they are clearly prophetic in nature and it cannot be demonstrated that David experienced the events described within them.

If Jesus had demonstrated a less than perfect disposition with regard to sin first century Judaism would have merrily trotted the evidence BUT no real evidence has ever been produced aside from vain speculation.

Matt 22:41-45 And when the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, saying, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?" They said to Him, "David's." He said to them, "How then does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying: 'The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet" '? "If David therefore calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his Son?"
#10
(10-22-2013, 05:23 AM)Feedmysheep Wrote: "For we do not have a High Priest who cannot be touched with the feeling of our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all respects like us, yet without sin ..." (Heb. 4:15)
Yeah, well there's still the issue of Numbers 19, and baptism to fulfill all righteousness which indicates shortcomings.

(10-22-2013, 07:40 AM)HumblePetitioner Wrote: The context of much of Hebrews is that of the High Priesthood of Jesus as being of the order of Melchizedek and not of the order of Aaron as a result you cannot make a one-to-one comparison of the two.
I can because in the third temple, the prince/messiah offers sacrifices for himself too, Ezek 45.

(10-22-2013, 07:40 AM)HumblePetitioner Wrote: The context of Psalm 20 & 28 was the timeframe during which they were written and not prophetic to any degree BUT the context of Psalm 2 & 22 cannot be limited to the timeframe of their writing as they are clearly prophetic in nature and it cannot be demonstrated that David experienced the events described within them.
Psalm 2:1 the nations/gentiles are rebelling against the king, not the Jews. Psalm 22:10 the subject is acknowledging G-d from the womb (then J-man can't be a god).

Read the entire Psalm 20 and 28 and see if the anointed is not crying out for salvation, just like J-man did in Hebrews 5:7. You're only kidding yourself.

(10-22-2013, 07:40 AM)HumblePetitioner Wrote: If Jesus had demonstrated a less than perfect disposition with regard to sin first century Judaism would have merrily trotted the evidence BUT no real evidence has ever been produced aside from vain speculation.
That's because no man is perfect so there is no real reason to argue the point.


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