Bible Options Bible Study Software
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Scepter Departed and Messiah came
#1
Jacob's Final Prophecy States:
Genesis 49:10: The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Shiloh means "He whose right it is, that which belongs to him"
The scepter refers to their tribal identity and their right to apply and enforce Mosaic Laws and adjudicate capital offenses. Even during the Babylonian captivity, the tribes retained their own judges, etc. (Ezek 1:5,8); Josh McDowell, Evidence that Demands a Verdict, pp. 108-168.

The term Shiloh was understood by the early rabbis and Talmudic authorities as referring to the Messiah [Targum Onkelos; Targum Jonathan; Targum Yerusahlmi; Cf. The Messiah: An Aramaic Interpretation; The Messianic Exegesis of the Targum, Samson Levy, Hebrew Union College Jewish Institute of Religion, Cincinnati, 1974.]

When Caponius was appointed Procurated (around 7 A.D.), the legal power of the Sanhedrin was restricted and adjudication of capital offenses was lost. Cf. Josephus, Wars of the Jews, 2:8; Antiquities 20:9.
The priests officially mourned "Woe unto us for the scepter has departed from Judah and the Messiah has not come!" (Cf. Babylonian Talmud, Chapter 4, folio 37).

While the Jews wept in the streets of Jerusalem, a young son of a carpenter was growing up in Nazareth who would present Himself as the Meshiach Nagid, Messiah the King.

The Jews wept because they believed the Word of God had failed...The scepter indeed had been removed from Judah, BUT SHILOH HAD COME!

This seems obvious to me that Jesus = Messiah. Am I missing something? How do you explain this away?
#2
(10-22-2013, 07:30 AM)Tricia73 Wrote: Jacob's Final Prophecy States:
Genesis 49:10: The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Shiloh means "He whose right it is, that which belongs to him"
The scepter refers to their tribal identity and their right to apply and enforce Mosaic Laws and adjudicate capital offenses. Even during the Babylonian captivity, the tribes retained their own judges, etc. (Ezek 1:5,8); Josh McDowell, Evidence that Demands a Verdict, pp. 108-168.

The term Shiloh was understood by the early rabbis and Talmudic authorities as referring to the Messiah [Targum Onkelos; Targum Jonathan; Targum Yerusahlmi; Cf. The Messiah: An Aramaic Interpretation; The Messianic Exegesis of the Targum, Samson Levy, Hebrew Union College Jewish Institute of Religion, Cincinnati, 1974.]

When Caponius was appointed Procurated (around 7 A.D.), the legal power of the Sanhedrin was restricted and adjudication of capital offenses was lost. Cf. Josephus, Wars of the Jews, 2:8; Antiquities 20:9.
The priests officially mourned "Woe unto us for the scepter has departed from Judah and the Messiah has not come!" (Cf. Babylonian Talmud, Chapter 4, folio 37).

While the Jews wept in the streets of Jerusalem, a young son of a carpenter was growing up in Nazareth who would present Himself as the Meshiach Nagid, Messiah the King.

The Jews wept because they believed the Word of God had failed...The scepter indeed had been removed from Judah, BUT SHILOH HAD COME!

This seems obvious to me that Jesus = Messiah. Am I missing something? How do you explain this away?

Thanks for this.

Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Y'shua every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Y'shua the anointed is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
#3
Tricia37, for me to have an idea what the Talmud says, could you provide a tractate? I've found that many instances of confusion from the Talmud derive from not fully understanding the Talmud and relevant commentaries.

But that is somewhat of a side issue, as Christians like Jews for Jesus dismiss the Talmud as merely the works of man and having no legal foundation.

So, you ask, what of this son of a carpenter in Nazareth? The fact is, there is no connection between what the Jewish prophets say about the Messiah and what the Greek Testament says about Jesus. Not only has nothing regarding the Messianic Age come to fruition, but the exact opposite has been the case since your master died:

The prophets tell us that Messianic Age will feature the Jewish exiles returning to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6), yet Jews were expelled from Israel shortly after his brief time on Earth.

The prophets tell us war will cease in the End of Days (Isaiah 2:4), yet much Jewish blood has been spilled by Christians in Jesus' name(like the Crusades and the Inquisition,).

The prophets promise a Temple atop the Mountain of the L-RD (Isaiah 2:2-3), yet the Temple was destroyed soon after the Nazarene's death.

The prophets tell us no one will have to tell one another saying "know the L-RD," for all mankind will know G-D (Jeremiah 31:34, Isaiah 66:23), yet Christians, Krishnas, and many others, spend billions of dollars on getting people to believe in their respective gods, and many religions have started up since the first Christian century.

With these and more, there is no reason to even think Jesus could have been the promised Jewish Messiah.
#4
All of the above things happened because the Jews as a whole rejected Jesus as Messiah. Jesus will come back when, as Hosea 5:15 says, the Jews acknowledge their offense (of rejecting their Messiah) and seek Him earnestly.
If the Jews had accepted Jesus at his first coming, then that would have brought in the Messianic Age. That is what is meant in Matthew chapters 11 and 17 when Jesus discusses John the Baptist. If the Jews had been willing to receive Jesus as Messiah, John would have fulfilled the role of Elijah (who will come for Jesus' second coming, before the Day of the Lord, Malachi 4:5-6, since they rejected Jesus the first time). John the Baptist is the messanger spoken of in Mal 3:1 (also Isa 40:3-4).

Re: the prophecy of Genesis 49, I'm not familiar with tractates (sorry, I admit I have no background in Jewish documents, etc, other than my own study of the Old Testament). This prophecy is located toward the end of Genesis which is Moses' first book, when Jacob is telling the prophecies for the tribes, specifically Judah. (does this help??) I would be interested in specifics about why you reject that particular prophecy.

There are multitudes of prophecies in the Old Testament speaking obviously of Jesus. If you do the math, it is actually statistically impossible for Jesus not to be the Messiah spoken of in the Old Testament. Someone can try to argue away this one or that one, but there comes a point that you just can't deny it, in light of the hundreds of undeniable fulfillments, if you truly were to be open to reason.

I'd imagine you are familiar with some of these prophecies already, but I'd be happy to explain any ones you disbelieve as being pointing to Jesus.

PS As a side note, there are many people claiming to be Christians who are not (like probably most if not all the Crusaders, etc) and the Bible actually prophesied of an apostate church and wolves among sheep in the Church, etc. Any true Bible believing Christian loves the Jews and would never spill blood or take part in an Inquisition. In fact, according to Matthew 25, the saints who live during the 70th week of Daniel (Tribulation period), will actually be judged on how well they treat the Jews - Matthew's Sheep (who treat Jews well) & Goat (who treat Jews bad) Judgment.
#5
(10-23-2013, 11:32 AM)A. Bird Wrote:
(10-22-2013, 07:30 AM)Tricia73 Wrote: Jacob's Final Prophecy States:
Genesis 49:10: The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Shiloh means "He whose right it is, that which belongs to him"
The scepter refers to their tribal identity and their right to apply and enforce Mosaic Laws and adjudicate capital offenses. Even during the Babylonian captivity, the tribes retained their own judges, etc. (Ezek 1:5,8); Josh McDowell, Evidence that Demands a Verdict, pp. 108-168.

The term Shiloh was understood by the early rabbis and Talmudic authorities as referring to the Messiah [Targum Onkelos; Targum Jonathan; Targum Yerusahlmi; Cf. The Messiah: An Aramaic Interpretation; The Messianic Exegesis of the Targum, Samson Levy, Hebrew Union College Jewish Institute of Religion, Cincinnati, 1974.]
Thanks for this.

Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Y'shua every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Y'shua the anointed is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
It is true that one interpretation is that Shiloh refers to messiah. What is interesting as well is that Onkelos also has this to say in Gen 49:11 - He will lead Israel around His city. They will build His temple. The righteous will be around him, and will carry out the law by studying with him. Let his raiment be of fine purple, and his outer garment be comprised of wool, crimson and multicolored. [Onkelos and the Torah - Understanding the Bible Text - Bereshit/Genesis; Rabbi Israel Drazin, Gefen Publishing House, 2006]

Isa 42:1,4,21 - The servant in these verses follows Torah.

Onkelos in Gen 49:10-11 agrees with Deut 17:14-20 where the kings write Torah, and rule by Torah. If you accept this account of Onkelos in Gen 49:10 then you must accept that Torah is eternal.

Is this the J-sus that you preach and the building of the 3rd temple?
#6
Tricia73 Wrote:All of the above things happened because the Jews as a whole rejected Jesus as Messiah…If the Jews had accepted Jesus at his first coming, then that would have brought in the Messianic Age.

Actually, it can be said that the above happened because so many Jews turned to Jesus and the Jerusalem Church as a means of salvation and ignoring G-D’s Torah. There is no verse which even hints to a need to believe in or accept the Messiah when he arrives, so why would you say rejection of who you think is the Messiah would lead to anything bad for the Jews?

Tricia73 Wrote:Jesus will come back when, as Hosea 5:15 says, the Jews acknowledge their offense (of rejecting their Messiah) and seek Him earnestly.

Once again, I ask you how you think Hosea 5 speaks at all of the Messiah. G-D is clearly the one speaking, and He mentions the “singular offence” clearly at least three times in the chapter, i.e. serving other gods.

Tricia73 Wrote:If the Jews had been willing to receive Jesus as Messiah, John would have fulfilled the role of Elijah

John didn’t think so (Jn 1:21).

Tricia73 Wrote:Re: the prophecy of Genesis 49, I'm not familiar with tractates (sorry, I admit I have no background in Jewish documents, etc, other than my own study of the Old Testament). This prophecy is located toward the end of Genesis which is Moses' first book, when Jacob is telling the prophecies for the tribes, specifically Judah. (does this help??) I would be interested in specifics about why you reject that particular prophecy.

Sorry, but it does not help at all. Even if I were to find a place where the Talmud discusses Genesis 49, I have no way of knowing if that was the text you had in mind, or if someone had told you a source which doesn’t exist. I have had Christians in the past quote non-existent Talmud sources, hence my request that you provide the exact source.
#7
Tricia73 Wrote:There are multitudes of prophecies in the Old Testament speaking obviously of Jesus. If you do the math, it is actually statistically impossible for Jesus not to be the Messiah spoken of in the Old Testament. Someone can try to argue away this one or that one, but there comes a point that you just can't deny it, in light of the hundreds of undeniable fulfillments…

If we take just some of the “undeniable fulfillments,” you’ll see something remarkable. I found a website which lists 365 “prophecies” Jesus fulfilled, and it turns out that I, too, “fulfilled” many of them:
>I bruised a snake’s head (as per Gen 3:15)
>I am continuing in the promise made to Avraham, my father (Gen 12:17)
>I am of the seed of Isaac (Gen 17:19)
>I am a first-born (Exodus 13:2)
>I’ve suffered outside the Camp (Lev 16:27)
>I’ve thirsted (Psa 22:15)
>When I donated clothing they parted my garments (Psa 22:18)
>People have testified falsely against me (Psa 35:11)
>My friends stood of in the distance once (Psa 38:11)
>I was once betrayed by a friend (Psa 41:9)
>I’ve been a stranger to Jews (Psa 69:8)

From “prophecies” taken from only four books in the Jewish Scriptures, I have already “fulfilled” a dozen “prophecies,” the odds of which are astronomical, or so we are told.

My point is this: When you look as what the Christians say are prophecies, and really examine them in context, none of them even explicitly mention the End of Days, Davidic king. Let’s examine a few of the prophecies that both Jews and Christians agree are Messianic in nature:
>Worldwide peace (Isa 2:4)
>Universal knowledge of G-D (Isa 11:9)
>Resurrection of the dead (Dan 12:2)

What’s unique here is that with the first list, either it has been accomplished by many people already, or it is impossible to verify nowadays that Jesus did it. In the latter list, if any of them ever happened, we would know about it now.

Tricia73 Wrote:there are many people claiming to be Christians who are not (like probably most if not all the Crusaders, etc) and the Bible actually prophesied of an apostate church and wolves among sheep in the Church, etc.

The Crusaders rode with big crosses on their fronts and were given absolution by the Pope before embarking on their quest. Any attempt to ignore the Christianness of the Crusaders is to deny history. These atrocities, along with the Inquisition and others, were physical attempts to win a battle they could not win on intellectual or Scriptural grounds.
#8
While some prophecies can be claimed to be fulfilled by many, there are many that cannot. (see below for examples; Old Testament sites included).

Have you spent a season in Egypt? Were you born in Bethlehem? Of a virgin? Were you called Immanuel? Did you bring light to Galilee? Was your price used to buy a potter’s field? Were you crucified with criminals? You get my point.

Also, the non-believing Jew Josephus Flavius (and other secular people) documents many of the prophecies, confirming their validity. Obviously, he has no motive to verify them.

Finally, I disagree that the Crusaders were true Christians. Many members of the Protestant Reformation strongly believed that the Pope was actually the Antichrist.

Messiah would be born in Bethlehem.Micah 5:2Matthew 2:1
Luke 2:4-6
Messiah would be born of a virgin.Isaiah 7:14Matthew 1:22-23
Luke 1:26-31
Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah.Genesis 49:10Luke 3:33
Hebrews 7:14
Messiah would be heir to King David's throne.2 Samuel 7:12-13
Isaiah 9:7Luke 1:32-33
Romans 1:3
Messiah would be called Immanuel.Isaiah 7:14Matthew 1:23
Messiah would spend a season in Egypt.Hosea 11:1Matthew 2:14-15
A massacre of children would happen at Messiah's birthplace.Jeremiah 31:15Matthew 2:16-18
A messenger would prepare the way for MessiahIsaiah 40:3-5Luke 3:3-6
Messiah would be declared the Son of God.Psalm 2:7Matthew 3:16-17
Messiah would be called a Nazarene.Isaiah 11:1Matthew 2:23
Messiah would bring light to Galilee.Isaiah 9:1-2Matthew 4:13-16
Messiah would speak in parables.Psalm 78:2-4
Isaiah 6:9-10Matthew 13:10-15,34-35
Messiah would be sent to heal the brokenhearted.Isaiah 61:1-2Luke 4:18-19
Messiah would be a priest after the order ofMelchizedek.Psalm 110:4Hebrews 5:5-6
Messiah would be called King.Psalm 2:6
Zechariah 9:9Matthew 27:37
Mark 11:7-11
Messiah's price money would be used to buy a potter's field.Zechariah 11:12-13Matthew 27:9-10
Messiah would be silent before his accusers.Isaiah 53:7Mark 15:4-5
Messiah would be spat upon and struck.Isaiah 50:6Matthew 26:67
Messiah would be hated without cause.Psalm 35:19
Psalm 69:4John 15:24-25
Messiah would be crucified with criminals.Isaiah 53:12Matthew 27:38
Mark 15:27-28
Messiah's hands and feet would be pierced.Psalm 22:16
Zechariah 12:10John 20:25-27
Messiah would be mocked and ridiculed.Psalm 22:7-8Luke 23:35
Soldiers would gamble for Messiah's garments.Psalm 22:18Luke 23:34
Matthew 27:35-36
Messiah's bones would not be broken.Exodus 12:46
Psalm 34:20John 19:33-36
Messiah would be forsaken by God.Psalm 22:1Matthew 27:46
Messiah would pray for his enemies.Psalm 109:4Luke 23:34
Soldiers would pierce Messiah's side.Zechariah 12:10John 19:34
Messiah would be buried with the rich.Isaiah 53:9Matthew 27:57-60
Messiah would be called King.Psalm 2:6
Zechariah 9:9Matthew 27:37
Mark 11:7-11
#9
I forgot to mention another key prophecy that can’t be manipulated:

Prophecy: Zechariah 9:9
"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King is coming to you; He is just and having salvation, lowly and riding on a donkey, a colt, the foal of a donkey."

Fulfillment: John 12:12-14
"a great multitude when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, took branches of palm trees and went out to meet Him, and cried out: 'Hosanna! "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!" The King of Israel!' Then Jesus, when He had found a young donkey, sat on it; as it is written."

Secular and Jewish evidence supports the New Testament's account: for example, the Toledot Yeshu (1000AD) which is a Jewish retelling of the life of Yeshua, and is completely anti-Christian.
Despite the fact that the ancient Jews who wrote this did their best to argue for another interpretation of the Life of Yeshua, they did make several claims here about Him. It confirms that Yeshua claimed to be the Messiah, healed the lame, said that Isaiah foretold of his life, was worshipped as God, arrested by the Jews, beaten with rods, given vinegar to drink, wore a crown of thorns, rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, was betrayed by a man named Judah Iskarioto, and had followers who claimed he was resurrected and ascended, leaving an empty tomb!
#10
Tricia73, have you ever read “Toledot Yeshu?” In which language is it? Who wrote it? I have never heard of it, and no one I know has seen it.

Very briefly, let us assume that all the sources you gave are indeed Messianic prophecies. You believe that the Messiah is supposed to come twice, correct? Ok, then how can anyone be ruled out? If I wasn’t already born in Bethlehem, then after I die, I’ll come back, be born in Bethlehem to a virgin, and be on my way to Messiahship!

Let’s examine but a few of the sources you gave and try to get a better understanding of what’s going on here. I will begin by pointing out that I have already PM’ed you regarding Isaiah 53, so feel free to read that and tell me what you think.

You cite Isa 7:14 and Mt 1:23, “Messiah would be called Immanuel.” For starters, Jesus is never called “Immanuel” in the entire Greek Testament, so that is a problem right there. Second, if you were to read Isa 7 twenty minutes before Joseph met Mary, what therein would tell you this is speaking about the Messiah? All you’ve cited is verse 14, but that implies there are at least 13 other verses in this chapter. Does this chapter speak of the Messiah?

In fact, we can use this method with a few of these sources. Imagine you are living in the year 15 BCE. There is no Jerusalem Church, Paul is unheard of, and the disciples are all fishing or doing what they did before becoming the first Christians. You’re sitting in your house and you read Psalm 78:2-4, Zec 11:12-13, Isa 50:6, Psalm 35:19, Exo 12:46, and Psalm 109:4. Would you really conclude that these speak of the Messiah? How?

In fact, many of these have been “fulfilled” by millions in history as well: Many were born in Bethlehem, many were spat upon, many were called king in one context or another, many were actually named Immanuel, many spent time in Egypt, many healed the brokenhearted, etc. And then you claim that no one else can fulfill Zec 9:9, seemingly forgetting that donkey was a very common form of travel in those days. Just because people call someone a king does not make him a king, unless he was actually anointed to be king by someone qualified to do so. For example, although people called David’s son Avshalom “king” (2 Sam 15), he reigned as long as king of the Jews as Jesus did: never.


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)