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The "Shema", Deut 6:4, and the Absolute One G-d
#11
(12-08-2013, 09:56 AM)Azriel Wrote: Man; or Jesus does not become another entity of G-D, but is Hashems Word made flesh, Hahsems Word spoken through man, as the prophets, and Moses, but still is considered man; Hashems Creation.
Please explain what you mean by Hashem's Word made flesh. Also, please respond to one of the points #1-#4. My main concern for this post was the misapplication of the verse in Deut 6:4 based on the Hebrew, grammar, and context, which would show conclusively that Hashem is not a plurality. I think you agree with me on this point.
#12
(12-08-2013, 10:20 AM)Nachshon Wrote:
(12-08-2013, 09:56 AM)Azriel Wrote: Man; or Jesus does not become another entity of G-D, but is Hashems Word made flesh, Hahsems Word spoken through man, as the prophets, and Moses, but still is considered man; Hashems Creation.
Please explain what you mean by Hashem's Word made flesh. Also, please respond to one of the points #1-#4. My main concern for this post was the misapplication of the verse in Deut 6:4 based on the Hebrew, grammar, and context, which would show conclusively that Hashem is not a plurality. I think you agree with me on this point.


I certainly agree that YHVH is One G-D, not 3.There is no plurality in Hashem..
To your answer of what do I mean by Hashems Word made flesh, the explanation is lengthy, and I'm out of time. The answer can as well be seen through Hashems contact ,His Spirit to commune, and live within the sons of Israel; Hashems Word living within man , bringing forth un ending knowledge , and mystery in fellowship with His chosen Sons, leading them and guiding them in the journey to His Perfect Will. Yet still a son was born ;Immanuel; Hashems Word; His Innocent Creation born to dwell , and infuse within the remnant of the children of Israel.
The first scriptures that begin my answer are;
John 1:1-5 ; In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G-D, and the Word was G-D. He was in the beginning with G-D. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it,

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth… For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him, John 1:14, 16-18.

Ezekiel 37:4 Again He said to me, “Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, ‘O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! 5 Thus says the Lord God to these bones: “Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live. 6 I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the Lord.”’”

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and suddenly a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 Indeed, as I looked, the sinews and the flesh came upon them, and the skin covered them over; but there was no breath in them.

9 Also He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live.”’” 10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army.

11 Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, ‘Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!’ 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

13 Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves.

14"" I will put My Spirit in you"", and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the Lord, have spoken it and performed it,” says the Lord.’”


Got to run; [continued]
#13
(12-09-2013, 09:55 AM)Azriel Wrote: I certainly agree that YHVH is One G-D, not 3.There is no plurality in Hashem..

To your answer of what do I mean by Hashems Word made flesh, the explanation is lengthy, and I'm out of time. The answer can as well be seen through Hashems contact ,His Spirit to commune, and live within the sons of Israel; Hashems Word living within man , bringing forth un ending knowledge , and mystery in fellowship with His chosen Sons, leading them and guiding them in the journey to His Perfect Will. Yet still a son was born ;Immanuel; Hashems Word; His Innocent Creation born to dwell , and infuse within the remnant of the children of Israel.
The answer doesn't have to be lengthy. Do you believe Hashem physically became flesh, or do you believe that "the word became flesh" simply means that Hashem's desire found its fulfilment in a specific person as messiah, much like His desire for creation found its fulfillment in the physical heavens and earth?
#14
Plural Verbs Used With Elohim

Virtually all Hebrew scholars do recognize that the word Elohim, as it stands by itself, is a plural noun. Nevertheless, they wish to deny that it allows for any plurality in the Godhead whatsoever. Their line of reasoning usually goes like this: When "Elohim" is used of the true God, it is followed by a singular verb; when it is used of false gods, it is followed by the plural verb. Rabbi Greenberg states it as follows:

"But, in fact, the verb used in the opening verse of Genesis is "bara," which means "he created" - singular. One need not be too profound a student of Hebrew to understand that the opening verse of Genesis clearly speaks of a singular God."

The point made, of course, is generally true because the Bible does teach that God is only one God and, therefore, the general pattern is to have the plural noun followed by the singular verb when it speaks of the one true God. However, there are places where the word is used of the true God and yet it is followed by a plural verb:

Genesis 20:13: And it came to pass, when God (Elohim) caused me to wander (Literally: THEY caused me to wander) from my father's house ...

Genesis 35:7: ... because there God (Elohim) appeared to him ... (Literally: THEY appeared to him.)

2 Samuel 7:23: ... God (Elohim) went ... (Literally: THEY went.)

Psalm 58 Surely He is God who judges ... (Literally: THEY judge.)

The Name Eloah

If the plural form Elohim was the only form available for a reference to God, then conceivably the argument might be made that the writers of the Hebrew Scriptures had no other alternative but to use the word Elohim for both the one true God and the many false gods. However, the singular form for Elohim (Eloah) exists and is used in such passages as Deuteronomy 32:15-17 and Habakkuk 3:3. This singular form could easily have been used consistently. Yet it is only used 250 times, while the plural form is used 2,500 times. The far greater use of the plural form again turns the argument in favor of plurality in the Godhead rather than against it.

Plural Pronouns

Another case in point regarding Hebrew grammar is that often when God speaks of himself, he clearly uses the plural pronoun:

Genesis 1:26: Then God (Elohim) said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness ..."

He could hardly have made reference to angels since man was created in the image of God and not of angels. The Midrash Rabbah on Genesis recognizes the strength of this passage and comments as follows:

Rabbi Samuel Bar Hanman in the name of Rabbi Jonathan said, that at the time when Moses wrote the Torah, writing a portion of it daily, when he came to the verse which says, "And Elohim said, let us make man in our image after our likeness," Moses said, "Master of the universe, why do you give here with an excuse to the sectarians (who believe in the Tri-unity of God)" God answered Moses, "You write and whoever wants to err, let him err." (Midrash Rabbah on Genesis 1:26 [New York NOP Press, N.D.])

It is obvious that the Midrash Rabbah is simply trying to get around the problem and fails to answer adequately why God refers to himself in the plural.

The use of the plural pronoun can also be seen In the following:

Genesis 3:22: Then the LORD God (YHVH Elohim) said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us''

Genesis 11:7: "Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language.''

Isaiah 6:8: Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?"

This last passage would appear contradictory with the singular "I" and the plural "us'' except as viewed as a plurality (us) in a unity (I).

Plural Descriptions of God

Another point that also comes out of Hebrew is the fact that often nouns and adjectives used in speaking of God are plural. Some examples are as follows:

Ecclesiastes 12:1: Remember now your Creator ... (Literally: CREATORS.)

Psalm 149:2: Let Israel rejoice in their Maker. (Literally: MAKERS.)

Joshua 24:19: ... holy God ... (Literally: HOLY GODS.)

Isaiah 54:5: For your Maker is your husband. (Literally: MAKERS, HUSBANDS.)

Everything we have said so far rests firmly on the Hebrew language of the Scriptures. If we are to base our theology on the Scriptures alone, we have to say that on the one hand they affirm God's unity, while at the same time they tend towards the concept of a compound unity allowing for a plurality in the Godhead.

The Shema

Deuteronomy 6:4: Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!

Deuteronomy 6:4, known as the SHEMA, has always been Israel's great confession. It is this verse more than any other that is used to affirm the fact that God is one and is often used to contradict the concept of plurality in the Godhead. But is it a valid use of this verse?

On the one hand it should be noted that the very words "our God" are in the plural in the Hebrew text and literally mean "our Gods." However, the main argument lies in the word "one," which is the Hebrew word, ECHAD. A glance through the Hebrew text where the word is used elsewhere can quickly show that the word echad does not mean an absolute "one" but a compound "one."

For instance, in Genesis 1:5 the combination of evening and morning comprise one (echad) day. In Genesis 2:24 a man and a woman come together in marriage and the two "shall become one (echad) flesh." In Ezra 2:64 we are told that the whole assembly was as one (echad), though, of course, it was composed of numerous people. Ezekiel 37:17 provides a rather striking example where two sticks are combined to become one (echad). Thus, use of the word echad in Scripture shows it to be a compound and not an absolute unity.

There is a Hebrew word that does mean an absolute unity and that is YACHID, which is found in many Scripture passages, (Genesis 22:2,12; Judges 11:34; Psalm 22:21: 25:16; Proverbs 4:3; Jeremiah 6:26; Amos 8:10; Zechariah 12:10) the emphasis being on the meaning of "only." If Moses intended to teach God's absolute oneness as over against a compound unity, this would have been a far more appropriate word. In fact, Maimonides noted the strength of "yachid' and chose to use that word in his "Thirteen Articles of Faith'' in place of echad. However, Deuteronomy 6:4 (the Shema) does not use "yachid" in reference to God.

"Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand up together. All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he shall do His pleasure on Babylon, and His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. I, even I, have spoken; yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper. Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit have sent Me."

It should be noted that the speaker refers to himself as the one who is responsible for the creation of the heavens and the earth. It is clear that he cannot be speaking of anyone other than God. But then in verse 16, the speaker refers to himself using the pronouns of "I" and "me" and then distinguishes himself from two other personalities. He distinguishes himself from the Lord YHVH and then from the Spirit of God. Here is the Tri-unity as clearly defined as the Hebrew Scriptures make it.
#15
Jewishness and the Trinity - Fruchtenbaum
#16
(12-09-2013, 09:16 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(12-09-2013, 09:55 AM)Azriel Wrote: I certainly agree that YHVH is One G-D, not 3.There is no plurality in Hashem..

To your answer of what do I mean by Hashems Word made flesh, the explanation is lengthy, and I'm out of time. The answer can as well be seen through Hashems contact ,His Spirit to commune, and live within the sons of Israel; Hashems Word living within man , bringing forth un ending knowledge , and mystery in fellowship with His chosen Sons, leading them and guiding them in the journey to His Perfect Will. Yet still a son was born ;Immanuel; Hashems Word; His Innocent Creation born to dwell , and infuse within the remnant of the children of Israel.
The answer doesn't have to be lengthy. Do you believe Hashem physically became flesh, or do you believe that "the word became flesh" simply means that Hashem's desire found its fulfilment in a specific person as messiah, much like His desire for creation found its fulfillment in the physical heavens and earth?
Toda Nachshon, your description is very well put.. at the time you asked that question, I was reading the literature named ;The Mysterious angel of Heaven, realizing after my response to your question, the answer is so simple. Yet the volumes of knowledge surrounding the question is endless in the revelations of Knowledge YHVH places within the Hebrew Bible. YHVH is such a Loving G-D, and is never short to answer any earnest question, or prayer!

Shema Yisrael
#17
(12-14-2013, 08:47 AM)Azriel Wrote:
(12-09-2013, 09:16 PM)Nachshon Wrote: The answer doesn't have to be lengthy. Do you believe Hashem physically became flesh, or do you believe that "the word became flesh" simply means that Hashem's desire found its fulfilment in a specific person as messiah, much like His desire for creation found its fulfillment in the physical heavens and earth?
Toda Nachshon, your description is very well put.. at the time you asked that question, I was reading the literature named ;The Mysterious angel of Heaven, realizing after my response to your question, the answer is so simple. Yet the volumes of knowledge surrounding the question is endless in the revelations of Knowledge YHVH places within the Hebrew Bible. YHVH is such a Loving G-D, and is never short to answer any earnest question, or prayer!

Shema Yisrael
Thanks, Azriel. So, based on the response I gave you, which understanding do you have regarding "the word became flesh"?
#18
(12-13-2013, 03:39 PM)Tanachreader Wrote: The point made, of course, is generally true because the Bible does teach that God is only one God and, therefore, the general pattern is to have the plural noun followed by the singular verb when it speaks of the one true God. However, there are places where the word is used of the true God and yet it is followed by a plural verb:
There are exceptions to the rule. I have found 6 occurences of the word elohim with plural verbs. They are Gen 20:13, Gen 35:7, Ex 22:8, 2 Sam 7:23, 1 Kings 19:2, and 1 Kings 20:10. The last two are for foreign gods.

On the other hand, I have found over 300 uses of Elokim with singular verb participles. This accounts for 99% (300/304) of the uses of Elokim in these cases. I'll rely on the overwhelming evidence for a singular G-d.

Psalm 58 Surely He is God who judges ... (Literally: THEY judge.). This verse doesn't say this at all. All english translations refer to "He" and a singular G-d, not gods.

(12-13-2013, 03:39 PM)Tanachreader Wrote: The Name Eloah

If the plural form Elohim was the only form available for a reference to God, then conceivably the argument might be made that the writers of the Hebrew Scriptures had no other alternative but to use the word Elohim for both the one true God and the many false gods. However, the singular form for Elohim (Eloah) exists and is used in such passages as Deuteronomy 32:15-17 and Habakkuk 3:3. This singular form could easily have been used consistently. Yet it is only used 250 times, while the plural form is used 2,500 times. The far greater use of the plural form again turns the argument in favor of plurality in the Godhead rather than against it.
Actually since singular verbs are used 99% of the time with Elokim, your argument falls flat. Of the over 2500 uses of Elokim, 99+% are singular based on grammar and context.

Also, have you ever looked at Gen 35:1? There are two instances of the words for G-d - Elokim and Kel. Both use singular verbs. Interestingly enough the morphological singular form, Kel, is the one referenced as the G-d that Jacob saw.

(12-13-2013, 03:39 PM)Tanachreader Wrote: Plural Pronouns

Genesis 1:26: Then God (Elohim) said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness ..."
You mix arguments here because the singular verb "said/vayomer" is used with Elokim. Same thing for Gen 3:22. Gen 11:6,8 shows a singular verb for speaking and scattering.

Isaiah 6:8 - singular person speaking.
#19
(12-13-2013, 03:39 PM)Tanachreader Wrote: Plural Descriptions of God

Another point that also comes out of Hebrew is the fact that often nouns and adjectives used in speaking of God are plural. Some examples are as follows:

Ecclesiastes 12:1: Remember now your Creator ... (Literally: CREATORS.)

Psalm 149:2: Let Israel rejoice in their Maker. (Literally: MAKERS.)

Joshua 24:19: ... holy God ... (Literally: HOLY GODS.)

Isaiah 54:5: For your Maker is your husband. (Literally: MAKERS, HUSBANDS.)

Everything we have said so far rests firmly on the Hebrew language of the Scriptures. If we are to base our theology on the Scriptures alone, we have to say that on the one hand they affirm God's unity, while at the same time they tend towards the concept of a compound unity allowing for a plurality in the Godhead.
The most common verbs used to denote G-d as Creator are created/bara, made/asah, and formed/yatzar. In the creation accounts in Genesis, you'll find that all of these verbs are singular when referring to Hashem. I found about 30 hits total in Tanakh when doing this search on these verbs. A couple of hits were plural when referring to pagan gods using the term elohim. Your claim of plural referrences to G-d being often is not true.

Gen 1:1,7,16,21,25,27; Gen 2:3,7,19; Gen 3:1,21; Gen 21:6; Gen 41:25,28; Gen 42:28; Ex 18:1; Deut 4:32; Judges 6:40; 1 Sam 3:17; 1 Sam 14:44; 22:3; 25:22; 2 Sam 3:9,35; 2 Sam 19:14; 1 Kings 2:23,13:11; 1 Kings 19:2;20:10 (pagan gods); 2 Kings 6:31; Eccl 3:11,7:29.

There are nuances in the Hebrew language as you've noted above, but the overwhelming evidence shows Hashem, He is THE singular G-d, 1 Kings 18:39.

So there are maybe a total of 8 verses which imply plurality, while there are over 2500 verses which shows that Hashem is singular based on verb usage and context. That's less than 0.3% for plural (8/2508), and 99.7% for singularity (2500/2508). If you want to base your faith on 0.3%, go ahead.

As far as the Shema, I've answered this already in this thread in post #1.
#20
(12-14-2013, 06:49 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(12-14-2013, 08:47 AM)Azriel Wrote:
(12-09-2013, 09:16 PM)Nachshon Wrote: The answer doesn't have to be lengthy. Do you believe Hashem physically became flesh, or do you believe that "the word became flesh" simply means that Hashem's desire found its fulfilment in a specific person as messiah, much like His desire for creation found its fulfillment in the physical heavens and earth?
Toda Nachshon, your description is very well put.. at the time you asked that question, I was reading the literature named ;The Mysterious angel of Heaven, realizing after my response to your question, the answer is so simple. Yet the volumes of knowledge surrounding the question is endless in the revelations of Knowledge YHVH places within the Hebrew Bible. YHVH is such a Loving G-D, and is never short to answer any earnest question, or prayer!

Shema Yisrael
Thanks, Azriel. So, based on the response I gave you, which understanding do you have regarding "the word became flesh"?
The 2nd.Jesus is not G-D Omnipotent , but a new man, new Creation likened to Adam retaining the fulfilled knowledge of good and evil ,who by innocence [without sin ] retains the inflowing of Hashems Spirit. Jesus will is his own, choosing by free will His own will to be Hashems Will.
Luke 22:42 Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but yours, be done.
Jesus ; son of man; Son of YHVH ,spoke the Word of G-D His Father.

Jesus said;
Mark 3:35

For whosoever shall do the will of G-D, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother

Jesus did not exclude Himself from being a man, but came to gather the sons ; the children; His brothers sisters mothers of YHVH. Yeshua Meshiach speaks the Fathers Words, but He is not the Father YHVH. To say Jesus was G-D , is in conflict with Jesus Words, and Hashems.

But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity (Micah 5:2, ).

In Matthew paraphrase the last clause is apparently assimilated from 2 Samuel 5:2.
Matthew writes: "They said to him, In Bethlehem of Judea; for this is what has been written by the prophet: And you, Bethlehem, land of Judah, Are by no means least among the leaders of Judah; For out of you shall come forth a Ruler Who will shepherd My people Israel [Matthew 2:5-6],
I have seen no words that conflict against the Hebrew Bible, only men make the words conflict. Show me anywhere Jesus Words conflict, and I'll show you they do not. Only by holding the Gospels upon the Hebrew Bible do we find Hashems True Word, without the foundation of the Hebrew Bible the Gospels cannot be understood, and cannot be supported. I believe YHVH made it that way, without the Grace of Israel there is no salvation for the gentiles. Those Christians who realize this are few in number, as we see today how the world treats Israel. If they only knew the treasure and Grace of the entire world rests on Israel, war and hate would end. Then again evil knows this, and for that reason wants to destroy Israel.

If Israel's enemies laid down their weapons there would be peace today. If Israel laid down it's weapons there would be no Israel.But Israel must place their trust in Hashem, and not think they can make peace by dividing their land. It will not fair well with them; One day YHVH shall make peace. Peace is what we both as believers wait for; Meshiach to physically come. He came first to ready the hearts of Hashems people.
Isaiah 40:3 The voice of him that cries in the wilderness, Prepare you the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our G-D.
Yeshua came so that the Spirit of YHVH within Him, would live in all that choose to allow Hashems Spirit within them, the veil was torn open to the Holy of Holies that once again that Holy Place may live within these vessels of flesh, and it's words read not by the earthly light of the Menorah, but by the Heavenly light of Hashems Spirit written upon, and within our hearts and minds, and spirits , that we may be; One with YHVH as Yeshua; The Righteous death of Hashems Atonement through Yeshua's innocence made ready the path to our Holy G-D. [Genesis 22:8]

Yeshua is actually in the true sense of Biblical description ;Hashems servant[Isaiah 53:5]


Shalom


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