Bible Options Bible Study Software
Thread Rating:
  • 1 Vote(s) - 4 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
The "Shema", Deut 6:4, and the Absolute One G-d
#1
The Shema, Deut 6:4, has been a verse that has been misapplied by most Christians as a verse that supports the concept of the trinity. With a little bit of investigation we will see how this idea is false.

The most common arguments used by Christians to support the notion of a trinity in the Shema are as follows:

1) The word Elokeinu is plural and means a trinity.
2) The word one/echad is a unity and means a trinity.
3) The name Hashem is plural and means a trinity.
4) If an absolute one was meant, then the root word “yachid” would have been used instead of one/echad.
5) In the NT, Mark 12:29 the Greek word heis refers to a plurality, and so G-d is a plural.

Counter-Point
1) With respect to the G-d of Israel, we are shown in Deut 4:35, and 1 Kings 18:39 that the G-d of Israel is a singular, He, and this singularity is associated with the name of Hashem, YKVK, and that He is the Elokim, singular. So, if we reference the close to 1500 references to Hashem and Elokim combinations, we see that Hashem is singular.

2) The word echad/one can be used for a unity or an absolute one. Eccl 4:8-9 shows one/echad as being an absolute one. We see in Deut 6:6 that Hashem commands, a singular “I”, so we know that one in Deut 6:4 means an absolute one. The context determines the proper understanding.

3) We’ve shown in #1 above that Hashem is an absolute one already.

4) The root word “yachid” is not always used to denote an absolute one. Examples are Gen 22:2, where Isaac is the preferred son, but not the only one, and Gen 22:6,8,19, where yachdav means together. There are more examples.

5) The Greek word heis is not specific about one or unity. But what is for sure is that the Greek word for G-d, theos, is a singular word for G-d. Had the Greek wanted to imply a plurality, it would have used theoi or theois. So, it is clear that Deut 6:4 meant an absolute one G-d to J-sus.

If you want to discuss this verse, please pick "one" point above at a time. Thanks.
#2
Deut:4:35 The acknowledment of more gods than one is expressly prohibited. The Messiah YESHUA is God and there is no God besides Him, He and the Father are ONE! The name of Hashem, YKVK, and that He is the Elokim, singular confirms John:10:30
De:4:35: Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

John:10:30: I and my Father are one
Jesus is YKVK
The Real translation is "Hear, O Israel: The Lords our God, the LORDS are one.
Again Lords is plural and the original Hebrew had no vowels, they were added later so that the language would not disappear.

If the Shema had intended to express absolute oneness, it would have used the Hebrew word yachid instead of echad. However, the word yachid is never used in reference to God, while echad is!

The word translated "one" from the Hebrew is echad, which demonstrates a compound unity of oneness because Lords is plural and the LORDS are one(echad). Our God.
DEUT 6:4. SHEMA YISRAEL ADONAI ELOHEINU ADONAI ECHAD BARUCH SHEM KEVOD MALCHUTO LEOLAM VAED.

ELOHEINU means Gods.
#3
(12-06-2013, 10:22 AM)Tanachreader Wrote: Deut:4:35 The acknowledment of more gods than one is expressly prohibited. The Messiah YESHUA is God and there is no God besides Him, He and the Father are ONE! The name of Hashem, YKVK, and that He is the Elokim, singular confirms John:10:30
De:4:35: Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

John:10:30: I and my Father are one
Jesus is YKVK
The Real translation is "Hear, O Israel: The Lords our God, the LORDS are one.
Again Lords is plural and the original Hebrew had no vowels, they were added later so that the language would not disappear.

If the Shema had intended to express absolute oneness, it would have used the Hebrew word yachid instead of echad. However, the word yachid is never used in reference to God, while echad is!

The word translated "one" from the Hebrew is echad, which demonstrates a compound unity of oneness because Lords is plural and the LORDS are one(echad). Our God.
DEUT 6:4. SHEMA YISRAEL ADONAI ELOHEINU ADONAI ECHAD BARUCH SHEM KEVOD MALCHUTO LEOLAM VAED.

ELOHEINU means Gods.
I've responded already to the content of your post - Elokim is singular based on context, echad can be absolute one based on context, the name of Hashem YKVK is not plural.

If you want, respond to a specific point. You and I have already discussed all of these issues.
#4
John:10:30: I and my Father are one
#5
(12-06-2013, 12:20 PM)Tanachreader Wrote: John:10:30: I and my Father are one
All that J-sus was trying to convey was that he was one/in agreement with G-d's will, John 10:25. Amos 3:3, if you'll look at the root word for "yachid" in this verse, you'll see that it means together (yachdav) not exclusively one.

Where does J-sus say plainly that he is G-d? Since you believe he is G-d, he already said plainly that G-d is not a man, Numbers 23:19.
#6
(12-06-2013, 12:54 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(12-06-2013, 12:20 PM)Tanachreader Wrote: John:10:30: I and my Father are one
All that J-sus was trying to convey was that he was one/in agreement with G-d's will, John 10:25. Amos 3:3, if you'll look at the root word for "yachid" in this verse, you'll see that it means together (yachdav) not exclusively one.

Where does J-sus say plainly that he is G-d? Since you believe he is G-d, he already said plainly that G-d is not a man, Numbers 23:19.
This is plain!
Mark 2:5-7—And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?”

John 8:12—“I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”

John 14:6—Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.”

Matthew 25:31-32—“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.”

John 11:25—Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies.”

John 17:5—“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”

John 5:21-23—“For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.”
#7
(12-06-2013, 02:46 PM)Tanachreader Wrote: This is plain!
Mark 2:5-7—And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?”
Didn't Nathan forgive David's sins, 2 Sam 12:13? Show me where J-sus says plainly that he is G-d, since in your thinking he also said Numbers 23:19, and Isa 46:5, and Isa 40:25.

Don't forget, J-sus spoke in parables so most of the time he was not referring to himself. It's a common way of teaching to students.

Also, please stick to the point of discussion. Reply to points #1 - #4.
#8
(12-06-2013, 03:49 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(12-06-2013, 02:46 PM)Tanachreader Wrote: This is plain!
Mark 2:5-7—And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?”
Didn't Nathan forgive David's sins, 2 Sam 12:13? Show me where J-sus says plainly that he is G-d, since in your thinking he also said Numbers 23:19, and Isa 46:5, and Isa 40:25.

Don't forget, J-sus spoke in parables so most of the time he was not referring to himself. It's a common way of teaching to students.

Also, please stick to the point of discussion. Reply to points #1 - #4.
Nathan said:
The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

Jesus did it himself. In fact He told them they sinned.
Joh:5:14: Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
Joh:8:11: She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
Joh:9:41: Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
#9
(12-06-2013, 04:17 PM)Tanachreader Wrote:
(12-06-2013, 03:49 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(12-06-2013, 02:46 PM)Tanachreader Wrote: This is plain!
Mark 2:5-7—And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?”
Didn't Nathan forgive David's sins, 2 Sam 12:13? Show me where J-sus says plainly that he is G-d, since in your thinking he also said Numbers 23:19, and Isa 46:5, and Isa 40:25.

Don't forget, J-sus spoke in parables so most of the time he was not referring to himself. It's a common way of teaching to students.

Also, please stick to the point of discussion. Reply to points #1 - #4.
Nathan said:
The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

Jesus did it himself. In fact He told them they sinned.
Joh:5:14: Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
Joh:8:11: She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
Joh:9:41: Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
No messenger, prophet, or messiah act without the authority of G-d.

Can you reply to one of the original points #1-#4?
#10
(12-05-2013, 07:25 PM)Nachshon Wrote: The Shema, Deut 6:4, has been a verse that has been misapplied by most Christians as a verse that supports the concept of the trinity. With a little bit of investigation we will see how this idea is false.

The most common arguments used by Christians to support the notion of a trinity in the Shema are as follows:

1) The word Elokeinu is plural and means a trinity.
2) The word one/echad is a unity and means a trinity.
3) The name Hashem is plural and means a trinity.
4) If an absolute one was meant, then the root word “yachid” would have been used instead of one/echad.

Counter-Point
1) With respect to the G-d of Israel, we are shown in Deut 4:35, and 1 Kings 18:39 that the G-d of Israel is a singular, He, and this singularity is associated with the name of Hashem, YKVK, and that He is the Elokim, singular. So, if we reference the close to 1500 references to Hashem and Elokim combinations, we see that Hashem is singular.

2) The word echad/one can be used for a unity or an absolute one. Eccl 4:8-9 shows one/echad as being an absolute one. We see in Deut 6:6 that Hashem commands, a singular “I”, so we know that one in Deut 6:4 means an absolute one. The context determines the proper understanding.

3) We’ve shown in #1 above that Hashem is an absolute one already.

4) The root word “yachid” is not always used to denote an absolute one. Examples are Gen 22:2, where Isaac is the preferred son, but not the only one, and Gen 22:6,8,19, where yachdav means together. There are more examples.

If you want to discuss this verse, please pick "one" point above at a time. Thanks.
I think there is much confusion in the church, thinking Hashem consists of 3 separate identities, which could be considered 3 identities of G-D, all three having their own independent actions from One another. I understand man, a being separate from YHVH given free in His Image will to follow YHVH, but still to be One with YHVH is to Love YHVH, and by loving YHVH ,follow Torah.

Man; or Jesus does not become another entity of G-D, but is Hashems Word made flesh, Hahsems Word spoken through man, as the prophets, and Moses, but still is considered man; Hashems Creation. I believe Jesus was New man , created without sin; firstborn of Hashems plan eternal Israel, and mankind who join themselves to Israel, as in likeness to Adam, sent to break the sin of mankind through Adam,by one man sin entered the world, and by one man sin was removed; Jesus possessing the full knowledge of good and evil, and choosing Good.. As far as Hashems Spirit , it is His own, as our spirits are ours, not 2, or 3 , but One G-D.

I have never seen the word ; trinity written in the Gospels. To say Hashem is divided is against Torah, and Jesus' Word , is against YHVH' Word.

1.Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2.Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)