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Got Born Again?
#31
(12-13-2013, 09:43 AM)Nachshon Wrote: It’s a phrase used by Christians to mean that one has the Holy Spirit in them and are new creations in Christ. But where does this teaching come from and are some Christians really born again in line with Yeshua’s words and with what the Tanakh presents? Is this teaching an original Christian teaching?

We find this NT teaching/concept in John 3:3-10. A key part to understanding this concept is that Yeshua is addressing Nicodemas, a master of the law. Why would Yeshua question Nicodemus about this subject if it wasn’t a matter regarding the law or Torah? Think about this.
John 3:8 Ecclesiastes 11:5

An example; one of many of being born again in the Hebrew Bible is when Yeshua said that no one can enter the kingdom of Hashem unless they are born again. That means that every heartfelt believer in the Hebrew Bible must have been born again. You say is there evidence to support what Yeshua said? Yes there is.

In Isaiah 6 we read of the prophet Isaiah's conversion. He had a vision of YHVH through Yeshua sitting on a throne. So what was his reaction to the vision? He said, 'Woe to me! I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.'

Isaiah's immediate reaction was to be conscious of his sin, which is a function of conviction of the Holy Spirit (Joh 16:8). He felt deep regret for his sin, realizing it was his undoing.

But a seraphim took Isaiah a live coal from the altar and placed it on his lips and told him that his sin had been atoned for and his guilt taken away. That is much the same ;and is what happens when we are born again: our sin is atoned for and our guilt is taken away.
Yeshua spoke the same Bible, and G-D of Israel, not another god.

Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of YHVH in them was pointing when Yeshua; Isaiah 53 predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. (1Pe 1:10–11)

Every prophet in the Hebrew Bible(male or female) was born again; they had, 'the Spirit of Yahoshua in them'. Hashem had believers in the Hebrew Bible, chosen by grace, just as he has today; and they met together for fellowship, as we do today. They were known as 'the company of the prophets' (2Ki 2:3,5).There was salvation in the generations before Yeshua, yet the act through Yeshua brought the finality , and fulfillment of the prophets to this remaining generations,;Genos in Greek;YHVH left waiting for Israel, and mankind's free will to choose salvation; to be born again. Yeshua's righteous atonement for mankind will one day bring flesh and spirit as One eternal, as before man's exile from the garden. To give restitution from the sin of Adam

Another of one such group built a meeting place on the banks of the Jordan because the place where they were meeting was too small (2Ki 6:1–2). That meant that Hashem was adding to their number and that church building programmes are not new.

Christians must learn from the Hebrew Bible.It is the foundation of the gospels; The Spirit of YHVH; One G-D . Hashem's church was living and active long before Yeshua died on the cross. In fact Hashem has been saving people since the time of Abel (Adam's son).

Having driven Adam and Eve out of the garden, G-D longed to have fellowship with mankind again. And Abel was saved by faith (Heb 11:4), just as we are. Jesus only finished what YHVH started long ago; not by one man alone but by Immanuel ;G-D with us from Old and Everlasting, but still one cannot accept One without the other, They are One Word, of One G-D and One Spirit of truth.
#32
(01-01-2014, 08:33 AM)Azriel Wrote: John 3:8 Ecclesiastes 11:5

An example; one of many of being born again in the Hebrew Bible is when Yeshua said that no one can enter the kingdom of Hashem unless they are born again. That means that every heartfelt believer in the Hebrew Bible must have been born again. You say is there evidence to support what Yeshua said? Yes there is.
I didn't question the validity of a person needing to be born again. The point I was making is what does it mean to be born again. J-sus was pointing to a person following Hashem's words/law/Torah as evidence of being born again in the spirit, as shown in Ezek 36:26-27.

(01-01-2014, 08:33 AM)Azriel Wrote: In Isaiah 6 we read of the prophet Isaiah's conversion. He had a vision of YHVH through Yeshua sitting on a throne. So what was his reaction to the vision? He said, 'Woe to me! I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.'
The passages say nothing about Yeshua.

(01-01-2014, 08:33 AM)Azriel Wrote: Every prophet in the Hebrew Bible(male or female) was born again; they had, 'the Spirit of Yahoshua in them'.
You made this up. Tanakh says nothing about this. You're reading into verses what you want them to say.

(01-01-2014, 08:33 AM)Azriel Wrote: Christians must learn from the Hebrew Bible.It is the foundation of the gospels; The Spirit of YHVH; One G-D . Hashem's church was living and active long before Yeshua died on the cross. In fact Hashem has been saving people since the time of Abel (Adam's son).
The Christian Church never existed until after the NT times.
#33
(01-03-2014, 08:10 AM)Nachshon Wrote: The Christian Church never existed until after the NT times.
Neither did Israel, or Torah before the times of Abraham and Moses time on earth. Yeshua is the fulfillment of these genos[generations,and aion [age].

Yet if we look past the physical appearance of these men and ages; Hashem existed eternally working and shaping His chosen as One body, One Mind, in One G-D . All existed in Hashems Mind far beyond their establishment on earth from Old and everlasting
#34
(01-03-2014, 09:47 AM)Azriel Wrote:
(01-03-2014, 08:10 AM)Nachshon Wrote: The Christian Church never existed until after the NT times.
Neither did Israel, or Torah before the times of Abraham and Moses time on earth. Yeshua is the fulfillment of these genos[generations,and aion [age].
The point was that you said the Church existed before J-sus, and that was not true. Gen 26:5 says Abraham kept Hashem's laws/Torahs. Adam was given a command of G-d to follow. It is true that Israel did not exist before Har Sinai as a nation, but that doesn't take away that your statement was incorrect.

(01-03-2014, 09:47 AM)Azriel Wrote: Yet if we look past the physical appearance of these men and ages; Hashem existed eternally working and shaping His chosen as One body, One Mind, in One G-D . All existed in Hashems Mind far beyond their establishment on earth from Old and everlasting
Yes, Hashem knew everything before they occurred or came to fruition.
#35
(01-03-2014, 09:59 AM)Nachshon Wrote: The point was that you said the Church existed before J-sus, and that was not true. Gen 26:5 says Abraham kept Hashem's laws/Torahs. Adam was given a command of G-d to follow. It is true that Israel did not exist before Har Sinai as a nation, but that doesn't take away that your statement was incorrect.
Please show me where I said this. How could the Christian church be in place before Jesus, your statement makes no sense.
#36
(01-03-2014, 05:41 PM)Azriel Wrote:
(01-03-2014, 09:59 AM)Nachshon Wrote: The point was that you said the Church existed before J-sus, and that was not true. Gen 26:5 says Abraham kept Hashem's laws/Torahs. Adam was given a command of G-d to follow. It is true that Israel did not exist before Har Sinai as a nation, but that doesn't take away that your statement was incorrect.
Please show me where I said this. How could the Christian church be in place before Jesus, your statement makes no sense.
(01-01-2014 08:33 AM)Azriel Wrote:
Christians must learn from the Hebrew Bible.It is the foundation of the gospels; The Spirit of YHVH; One G-D. Hashem's church was living and active long before Yeshua died on the cross. In fact Hashem has been saving people since the time of Abel (Adam's son).

How am I to understand this statement?
#37
(01-04-2014, 07:11 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(01-03-2014, 05:41 PM)Azriel Wrote:
(01-03-2014, 09:59 AM)Nachshon Wrote: The point was that you said the Church existed before J-sus, and that was not true. Gen 26:5 says Abraham kept Hashem's laws/Torahs. Adam was given a command of G-d to follow. It is true that Israel did not exist before Har Sinai as a nation, but that doesn't take away that your statement was incorrect.
Please show me where I said this. How could the Christian church be in place before Jesus, your statement makes no sense.
(01-01-2014 08:33 AM)Azriel Wrote:
Christians must learn from the Hebrew Bible.It is the foundation of the gospels; The Spirit of YHVH; One G-D. Hashem's church was living and active long before Yeshua died on the cross. In fact Hashem has been saving people since the time of Abel (Adam's son).

How am I to understand this statement?
I said Hashems church, not the Christian church. YHVH has been throughout Israel's history , leading and shaping His people into chosen obedience. He began with the Covenant of Abraham, and then through Moses, and into the New Covenant through Yeshua[Jeremiah 31:31-37, to retain the Promise of Abraham, the Covenant of Promise by Faith and Grace.

They are One Word from One G-D, not 3 different books but One. In Grace Israel began through Abraham, and by works of the Law through Moses they died, and in Grace are they saved through Jesus Christ[Yeshua], else Hashem would be a liar, and Israel would cease to exist.. Yeshua fulfilled the Law, and Promise to the seed of Isaac. Immanuel is not just One man, but Hashems Spirit within many sons and daughters; Israel. Jesus did not come to abolish the Law, but fulfill and establish the Law to a generation lost, and void from Hashems Word.

The time of the second temple, Israel, was ruled by corrupt leaders, and Priests, bought and paid for by the Roman occupation. Yeshua brought the seed of faith and hope of the Word of Grace to a broken and shattered Covenant; Immanuel that atoned, and grew in the remnant of Israel that has grown today, just as in the days of Isaiah who prophesied His birth;

Yeshua was the savior of the gentiles,and that through them ,Israel would grow into a Great nation as it is today. Israel's rebirth was established by YHVH through the Power of the Gentile nations believing in the Judeo /Christian faith. Israel is still a young nation with only one generation; this generation shall see the son of man return in the Power and Glory they expected to see in His first visit, yet not Yeshua, but YHVH to prepare the hearts of His people.

Many forget it was not one man , or many, but One G-D who has, and will bring Israel to it's full Glory everlasting. His Covenant; His Church; His people in One Spirit and One Mind, in One G-D. All is not finished yet waiting for the free will of Israel to come, but YHVH will cut that time short because Israel, and the world would surely destroy themselves.
Israel's blindness as well is for the salvation of the gentiles. Upon that fulfillment, when the gentile church is no longer divided, but united. I believe this is part of the veil; perhaps then when the gentile church see's clearly; Israel will understand the Power of their Mighty G-D. Romans 10:16-21 Romans 11:11 Romans 11:17-25.

I know the price has been paid for Israel's iniquity, and through Israel; salvation has come to the world Isaiah 56:7-8
Soon the hearts of the remnant of the gentile believers in Yeshua , and the remnant of the children of Israel;will their eyes and hearts, and minds will understand, and will receive, and know; We serve the same G-D.
#38
(01-05-2014, 08:21 AM)Azriel Wrote: I said Hashems church, not the Christian church. YHVH has been throughout Israel's history , leading and shaping His people into chosen obedience. He began with the Covenant of Abraham, and then through Moses, and into the New Covenant through Yeshua[Jeremiah 31:31-37, to retain the Promise of Abraham, the Covenant of Promise by Faith and Grace.
Azriel, Hashem never had a church, and never will. The church teachings are contary to the Torah. The verses in Jer 31 have nothing to do with the church, but with Israel.
#39
(01-05-2014, 10:49 AM)Nachshon Wrote:
(01-05-2014, 08:21 AM)Azriel Wrote: I said Hashems church, not the Christian church. YHVH has been throughout Israel's history , leading and shaping His people into chosen obedience. He began with the Covenant of Abraham, and then through Moses, and into the New Covenant through Yeshua[Jeremiah 31:31-37, to retain the Promise of Abraham, the Covenant of Promise by Faith and Grace.
Azriel, Hashem never had a church, and never will. The church teachings are contary to the Torah. The verses in Jer 31 have nothing to do with the church, but with Israel.

Church means House of the Lord. The congregation of believers assembled both on earth and in Heaven.
The Church is built on the Messiah Yeshua, the Son of the living God.
As Jewish and Gentile Believers we are Israel the children of Abraham.
M't:3:9: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
M't:8:11: And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Ac:3:13: The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
Ac:3:25: Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


Jer:31:32: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
#40
(01-07-2014, 09:47 AM)Tanachreader Wrote:
(01-05-2014, 10:49 AM)Nachshon Wrote:
(01-05-2014, 08:21 AM)Azriel Wrote: I said Hashems church, not the Christian church. YHVH has been throughout Israel's history , leading and shaping His people into chosen obedience. He began with the Covenant of Abraham, and then through Moses, and into the New Covenant through Yeshua[Jeremiah 31:31-37, to retain the Promise of Abraham, the Covenant of Promise by Faith and Grace.
Azriel, Hashem never had a church, and never will. The church teachings are contary to the Torah. The verses in Jer 31 have nothing to do with the church, but with Israel.

Church means House of the Lord. The congregation of believers assembled both on earth and in Heaven.
The Church is built on the Messiah Yeshua, the Son of the living God.
As Jewish and Gentile Believers we are Israel the children of Abraham.
M't:3:9: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
M't:8:11: And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Ac:3:13: The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
Ac:3:25: Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


Jer:31:32: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Yes all nations are blessed by Abraham's seed and teaching. But, you must just be grafted in, Isa 56:1-8.


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