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Got Born Again?
#1
It’s a phrase used by Christians to mean that one has the Holy Spirit in them and are new creations in Christ. But where does this teaching come from and are some Christians really born again in line with Yeshua’s words and with what the Tanakh presents? Is this teaching an original Christian teaching?

We find this NT teaching/concept in John 3:3-10. A key part to understanding this concept is that Yeshua is addressing Nicodemas, a master of the law. Why would Yeshua question Nicodemus about this subject if it wasn’t a matter regarding the law or Torah? Think about this.

We find that since the creation of Adam and the world, mankind has been responsible for following law. We find in Gen 2:16, Gen 3:3, man was commanded to obey and refrain from eating from the tree in the middle of the garden, the tree of knowledge of good and evil. We know the rest of the story.

Then, we find that the world was destroyed in the flood because of its corruption, Gen 6:11. Man moved further away from obedience to G-d. Noah is saved and told to obey laws regarding relationhips with mankind and food, Gen 9. Again, a command to return to obedience to G-d, a rebirth of the world and mankind.

Next, we are told about Abraham. Abraham heeds Hashem’s voice, leaves his native country and family, and journeys with his immediate family to a place Hashem will show him. He obeys Hashem, enters a covenant with him, and is blessed. Gen 22:18, Gen 26:4, shows how Abraham’s seed would bless all nations. We know that seed is associated with birth, Lev 12:2, so all nations would be blessed in knowing Abraham’s G-d and being obedient to Him.

We reach the pinnacle of Hashem’s covenant with mankind with the giving of the Torah at Har Sinai to Israel, Ex 20:1-17. The rest of Torah provides further details on how to fulfill the covenant. But, as one would expect, Israel struggles with keeping the Torah.

The prophets constantly call Israel to renew its heart, Deut 30:10, Josh 22:5, Jer 31:33, Ezek 36:26-27. So the Torah and Tanakh originated this teaching of being born again/renewed way before Christianity was on the scene.

Yeshua in the NTassociates being born again with water and the spirit. Water is associated with Torah, Amos 8:11, Neh 8:1. The spirit leads one to follow Torah, Ezek 36:26-27, Zech 7:12, Isa 42:1 (judgements/justice are associated with Torah). The spirit leads one to follow the truth, Psalm 25:10,86:11,119:30,142,151; Daniel 9:13, Mal 2:6.

So in summary, being born again means being renewed in the image that Hashem originally created us in – to be obedient to Him and to follow his laws. Are you born again?
#2
(12-13-2013, 09:43 AM)Nachshon Wrote: So in summary, being born again means being renewed in the image that Hashem originally created us in – to be obedient to Him and to follow his laws. Are you born again?

I was spiritually dead and separated from the God of Israel. Now God is with me and I'm spiritually awake.
Yes, I walk in the Spirit. I hear His voice and have followed Him literally 1000's of miles and at times speaking the words He gave me to speak.
Although of course I'm no Abraham I chose to walk with God when He called me.

Without the New Covenant one is spiritually dead and has no fellowship with God.
Under Moses and Joshua there was fellowship with God. Then it became sporadic, occurring at irregular intervals and only in a few places, scattered and isolated. After Yeshua if you rejected the Messiah you could never have the fellowship Israel once had.
All Yeshua did was Love his people and for this you reject Him? The reason may be because of the behavior of others but that still has nothing to do with Yeshua! He didn't teach others to hate.
He gave Himself, a Gift to Israel.
#3
(12-13-2013, 11:54 AM)Tanachreader Wrote:
(12-13-2013, 09:43 AM)Nachshon Wrote: So in summary, being born again means being renewed in the image that Hashem originally created us in – to be obedient to Him and to follow his laws. Are you born again?

I was spiritually dead and separated from the God of Israel. Now God is with me and I'm spiritually awake.
Yes, I walk in the Spirit. I hear His voice and have followed Him literally 1000's of miles and at times speaking the words He gave me to speak.
Although of course I'm no Abraham I chose to walk with God when He called me.

Without the New Covenant one is spiritually dead and has no fellowship with God.
Under Moses and Joshua there was fellowship with God. Then it became sporadic, occurring at irregular intervals and only in a few places, scattered and isolated. After Yeshua if you rejected the Messiah you could never have the fellowship Israel once had.
All Yeshua did was Love his people and for this you reject Him? The reason may be because of the behavior of others but that still has nothing to do with Yeshua! He didn't teach others to hate.
He gave Himself, a Gift to Israel.
Nice sentiment, but are you truly born again according to Yeshua's teachings? Matthew 7:23. Look at the Greek for iniquity/anomia. You'll see this fits inline with what I've presented.
#4
Nachshon wrote
Nice sentiment, but are you truly born again according to Yeshua's teachings? Matthew 7:23. Look at the Greek for iniquity/anomia. You'll see this fits inline with what I've presented.


anomia violation of law.
With Matthew 7:23 if you believe it is violation of the over 600 laws of the Mosaic Covenant than you believe all Christian Gentiles are damned and all Jews for no one is keeping all the Laws.
Galatians 5:3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.
Deuteronomy 27:26 Cursed be he that confirms not all the words of this law to do them. …

De:27:25: Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen.
De:27:26: Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.


Jesus was an innocent person. Even Judas knew He was innocent.
The 30 pieces of silver will be thrown in the potter's field.

Old Testament Prophecy: "And the Lord said to me, 'Throw it to the potters' - this magnificent sum at which they valued me! So I took the thirty coins and threw them to the potters in the Temple of the Lord." Zechariah 11:13

New Testament Fulfillment: "When Judas, who had betrayed him, realized that Jesus had been condemned to die, he was filled with remorse. So he took the thirty pieces of silver back to the leading priests and other leaders. 'I have sinned,' he declared, 'for I have betrayed an innocent man.' 'What do we care?' they retorted. 'That's your problem.' Then Judas threw the money onto the floor of the Temple and went out and hanged himself. The leading priests picked up the money. 'We can't put it in the Temple treasury,' they said, 'since it's against the law to accept money paid for murder.' After some discussion they finally decided to buy the potter's field, and they made it into a cemetery for foreigners. That is why the field is still called the Field of Blood." Matthew 27:3-8

You need to read the letters to the Church's in John's Revelation
#5
Nachshon Wrote:It’s a phrase used by Christians to mean that one has the Holy Spirit in them and are new creations in Christ. But where does this teaching come from and are some Christians really born again in line with Yeshua’s words and with what the Tanakh presents? Is this teaching an original Christian teaching?

Thank you for opening this topic for discussion ~ it is apparent that you thing you have a handle on it but I think you have a few things to come to understand ~ in any case let us proceed …

Nachshon Wrote:We find this NT teaching/concept in John 3:3-10. A key part to understanding this concept is that Yeshua is addressing Nicodemus, a master of the law. Why would Yeshua question Nicodemus about this subject if it wasn’t a matter regarding the law or Torah? Think about this.

Actually this term ‘born again’ is not found in any of John’s writings – only in 1 Peter 1:3 & 23 is a Greek word used that could be translated ‘born again’ – in John’s writings we find the idea of being ‘born of God’ or being ‘born from above’ as in what is told Nicodemus in John 3 ~ and once again the word used in 1 Peter 1 would be better translated to give the idea of being ‘born anew’ or having received a ‘new birth’ – this coincides with Paul’s concept of the ‘new creation’ – in every instance this is something that is wrought by God in the believer and nothing that is accomplished by the believer by ‘keeping the Law’.

Nachshon Wrote:We find that since the creation of Adam and the world, mankind has been responsible for following law. We find in Gen 2:16, Gen 3:3, man was commanded to obey and refrain from eating from the tree in the middle of the garden, the tree of knowledge of good and evil. We know the rest of the story.

Yes we do and the rest of the story is that mankind was not even capable of refraining from eating the fruit of a single tree – not a very auspicious beginning.

Nachshon Wrote:Then, we find that the world was destroyed in the flood because of its corruption, Gen 6:11. Man moved further away from obedience to G-d. Noah is saved and told to obey laws regarding relationships with mankind and food, Gen 9. Again, a command to return to obedience to G-d, a rebirth of the world and mankind.

Yes there was a ‘rebirth’ of sorts but it was a ‘rebirth’ of corruptible seed which produced another generation incapable of following the commands of God – this was because this was not a ‘new birth’ but merely a ‘rebirth’ of an unchanged humanity. As Peter explains the ‘new birth’ is of incorruptible seed …
1Pe 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1Pe 1:23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;

Nachshon Wrote:Next, we are told about Abraham. Abraham heeds Hashem’s voice, leaves his native country and family, and journeys with his immediate family to a place Hashem will show him. He obeys Hashem, enters a covenant with him, and is blessed. Gen 22:18, Gen 26:4, shows how Abraham’s seed would bless all nations. We know that seed is associated with birth, Lev 12:2, so all nations would be blessed in knowing Abraham’s G-d and being obedient to Him.

Abraham was a man made of the same corruptible seed as Adam and Noah there is no ‘new birth’ spoken of here.

Nachshon Wrote:We reach the pinnacle of Hashem’s covenant with mankind with the giving of the Torah at Har Sinai to Israel, Ex 20:1-17. The rest of Torah provides further details on how to fulfill the covenant. But, as one would expect, Israel struggles with keeping the Torah.

Actually I think it fair to say that Israel completely failed to ‘keep the Law’ due to the influence of the corruptible seed of which they were (and are) made.

Nachshon Wrote:The prophets constantly call Israel to renew its heart, Deut 30:10, Josh 22:5, Jer 31:33, Ezek 36:26-27. So the Torah and Tanakh originated this teaching of being born again/renewed way before Christianity was on the scene.

Being ‘renewed’ by one’s own effort is in no way equal to being ‘born anew’ to being ‘born from above’ to being ‘born of God’ to being a ‘new creation’.

Nachshon Wrote:Yeshua in the NT associates being born again with water and the spirit. Water is associated with Torah, Amos 8:11, Neh 8:1. The spirit leads one to follow Torah, Ezek 36:26-27, Zech 7:12, Isa 42:1 (judgements/justice are associated with Torah). The spirit leads one to follow the truth, Psalm 25:10,86:11,119:30,142,151;Daniel 9:13, Mal 2:6.

Jesus compared being born of water with being born of the Spirit – He compared being born of the flesh with being born the Spirit – He is compared being born ‘naturally’ to being born ‘Spiritually’ – John 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. – here the same comparison is made; ‘not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man’ refers to being born ‘naturally’; ‘but of God’ refers to being born ‘Spiritually’. None of this has anything to do with ‘keeping the Law’.

Nachshon Wrote:So in summary, being born again means being renewed in the image that Hashem originally created us in – to be obedient to Him and to follow his laws. Are you born again?

While there is some credibility to the idea that the ‘new birth’ begins the process of bringing the believer into the ‘image’ that God intends for the believer to emulate – this transformation has little to do with the believer’s ability to ‘keep the Law’. While ‘renewal’ is part of the process it cannot even begin unless the ‘new birth’ has been set in place. Obedience is part of the process but one cannot obey until the ‘new birth’ has occurred. The believer is ‘saved’ by grace through faith, not as the result of the believer’s obedience – but obedience will follow as the believer’s mind is ‘renewed’ by the regenerative cleansing work of the Holy Spirit – but the process begins with the ‘new birth’.

So in summary – has God caused the ‘new birth’ to occur in you – He will do it IF you will ‘receive’ and ‘believe’ in the Name of the Son of God.
#6
(12-13-2013, 02:25 PM)HumblePetitioner Wrote: Thank you for opening this topic for discussion ~ it is apparent that you thing you have a handle on it but I think you have a few things to come to understand ~ in any case let us proceed …
1 Peter 1:23 - the word of G-d, eternal, Psalm 119:142,144.
Are you saying J-sus words in John are incorrect?

(12-13-2013, 02:25 PM)HumblePetitioner Wrote: Actually I think it fair to say that Israel completely failed to ‘keep the Law’ due to the influence of the corruptible seed of which they were (and are) made.
As a whole yes, but not all. What do you say about Christians and the blood that was spilled for you, Hebrews 10:26?

(12-13-2013, 02:25 PM)HumblePetitioner Wrote:
Nachshon Wrote:Yeshua in the NT associates being born again with water and the spirit. Water is associated with Torah, Amos 8:11, Neh 8:1. The spirit leads one to follow Torah, Ezek 36:26-27, Zech 7:12, Isa 42:1 (judgements/justice are associated with Torah). The spirit leads one to follow the truth, Psalm 25:10,86:11,119:30,142,151;Daniel 9:13, Mal 2:6.
Jesus compared being born of water with being born of the Spirit – He compared being born of the flesh with being born the Spirit – He is compared being born ‘naturally’ to being born ‘Spiritually’ – John 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. – here the same comparison is made; ‘not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man’ refers to being born ‘naturally’; ‘but of God’ refers to being born ‘Spiritually’. None of this has anything to do with ‘keeping the Law’.
Sure it does, being obedient to G-d shows one has a new, whole heart.
The verses from the Tanakh above show this. Haven't you read Ezek 36:26-27?

(12-13-2013, 02:25 PM)HumblePetitioner Wrote:
Nachshon Wrote:So in summary, being born again means being renewed in the image that Hashem originally created us in – to be obedient to Him and to follow his laws. Are you born again?

So in summary – has God caused the ‘new birth’ to occur in you – He will do it IF you will ‘receive’ and ‘believe’ in the Name of the Son of God.
Actually, Ezek 36:26-27 shows the spirit to follow Hashem's Torah has nothing to do with J-sus.

(12-13-2013, 02:20 PM)Tanachreader Wrote: anomia violation of law.
With Matthew 7:23 if you believe it is violation of the over 600 laws of the Mosaic Covenant than you believe all Christian Gentiles are damned and all Jews for no one is keeping all the Laws.
Galatians 5:3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.
Deuteronomy 27:26 Cursed be he that confirms not all the words of this law to do them. …
Someone being born Jewish doesn't guarantee them to anything if they are not obedient to G-d. The Torah consists of laws that only apply to priests, levites, women, men, slaves, kings. So no one has to keep all 613 commandments.

What does your messiah say in Matthew 5:17-20? What does Hebrews 10:26 say? You're following Paul instead of your messiah's words.

You seem to forget that Hashem forgives those who are sincere, Psalms 25:18,86:5; Prov 28:9.

(12-13-2013, 02:20 PM)Tanachreader Wrote: You need to read the letters to the Church's in John's Revelation
Rev 12:17; Rev 14:12; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:22,24; 1 John 5:3; JOhn 15:10.

Have you read these letters?
#7
Nachshon Wrote:
HumblePetitioner]
Thank you for opening this topic for discussion ~ it is apparent that you thing you have a handle on it but I think you have a few things to come to understand ~ in any case let us proceed …
1 Peter 1:23 - the word of G-d, eternal, Psalm 119:142,144.
Are you saying J-sus words in John are incorrect?
[/quote]

I am not suggesting that either Paul or Peter or John or especially Jesus are incorrect – however your understanding of what they said needs some assistance.

In 1 Peter 1:23 Peter says that Christians are ‘born again’ through the ‘living’ [Jesus] and ‘abiding’ [Holy Spirit] word of God [Isa 40:5-9].

Nachshon Wrote:
HumblePetitioner Wrote:Actually I think it fair to say that Israel completely failed to ‘keep the Law’ due to the influence of the corruptible seed of which they were (and are) made.
As a whole yes, but not all. What do you say about Christians and the blood that was spilled for you, Hebrews 10:26?

Nooo I think ‘completely failed’ is very much accurate and that is the ‘confessed’ condition of all who put their trust in Jesus for salvation ~ as for Heb 10:26 seems to indicate that IF one should relapse into a life of deliberate sinning then there no longer remains a sacrifice for those sins – this is not to suggest that the Christian does not ‘sin’ but it suggests that the true Christian will not practice deliberate sin.
[hr Wrote:
Nachshon Wrote:
HumblePetitioner]
[quote=Nachshon]Yeshua in the NT associates being born again with water and the spirit. Water is associated with Torah, Amos 8:11, Neh 8:1. The spirit leads one to follow Torah, Ezek 36:26-27, Zech 7:12, Isa 42:1 (judgements/justice are associated with Torah). The spirit leads one to follow the truth, Psalm 25:10,86:11,119:30,142,151;Daniel 9:13, Mal 2:6.
Jesus compared being born of water with being born of the Spirit – He compared being born of the flesh with being born the Spirit – He is compared being born ‘naturally’ to being born ‘Spiritually’ – John 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. – here the same comparison is made; ‘not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man’ refers to being born ‘naturally’; ‘but of God’ refers to being born ‘Spiritually’. None of this has anything to do with ‘keeping the Law’.
Sure it does, being obedient to G-d shows one has a new, whole heart.
The verses from the Tanakh above show this. Havent you read Ezek 36:26-27?
[/quote Wrote:The associations made by Jesus in John 3 have no connection with ‘keeping the Law’ – they have to do with the ‘new birth’ and being ‘born from above’ – this is what MUST take place before any ‘evidence’ may become evident ~ salvation is not of the result of the works of the Law ~ the works of the Law are of salvation ~ you have it backwards ~ first: You MUST be ‘born from above’ to see the Kingdom of God.

Nachshon Wrote:
'HumblePetitioner Wrote:[quote=Nachshon]So in summary, being born again means being renewed in the image that Hashem originally created us in – to be obedient to Him and to follow his laws. Are you born again?
So in summary – has God caused the ‘new birth’ to occur in you – He will do it IF you will ‘receive’ and ‘believe’ in the Name of the Son of God.
Actually, Ezek 36:26-27 shows the spirit to follow Hashem's Torah has nothing to do with J-sus.

Sorry ~ but the gospel is all about Jesus ~ He is the one the Spirit glorifies and it is to Him we must go for salvation.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
#8
(12-16-2013, 02:19 PM)HumblePetitioner Wrote: I am not suggesting that either Paul or Peter or John or especially Jesus are incorrect – however your understanding of what they said needs some assistance.

In 1 Peter 1:23 Peter says that Christians are ‘born again’ through the ‘living’ [Jesus] and ‘abiding’ [Holy Spirit] word of God [Isa 40:5-9].
Yeah but you admit you don't follow the Torah so you don't have the spirit spoken about in Ezek 36:26-27, or in Zech 7:12.

(12-16-2013, 02:19 PM)HumblePetitioner Wrote: Nooo I think ‘completely failed’ is very much accurate and that is the ‘confessed’ condition of all who put their trust in Jesus for salvation ~ as for Heb 10:26 seems to indicate that IF one should relapse into a life of deliberate sinning then there no longer remains a sacrifice for those sins – this is not to suggest that the Christian does not ‘sin’ but it suggests that the true Christian will not practice deliberate sin.
Same with a Jew since Hashem forgives our sins. I would say that J-sus is referring to people who deliberately break the Torah in Matthew 7:23, and so does Heb 10:26.

(12-16-2013, 02:19 PM)HumblePetitioner Wrote: The associations made by Jesus in John 3 have no connection with ‘keeping the Law’ – they have to do with the ‘new birth’ and being ‘born from above’ – this is what MUST take place before any ‘evidence’ may become evident ~ salvation is not of the result of the works of the Law ~ the works of the Law are of salvation ~ you have it backwards ~ first: You MUST be ‘born from above’ to see the Kingdom of God.
When you're born again you follow the Torah, Ezek 36:26-27.

(12-16-2013, 02:19 PM)HumblePetitioner Wrote: Sorry ~ but the gospel is all about Jesus ~ He is the one the Spirit glorifies and it is to Him we must go for salvation.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Sorry, but the Tanakh doesn't show that. Only G-d, not messiah, is salvation, Psalms 20:6.

Torah is truth - Psalms 119:142
Torah is light and life - Proverbs 6:23, 13:14
#9
Paul commissioned By the Lord
Ac:26:13: At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
Ac:26:14: And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Ac:26:15: And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
Ac:26:16: But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

Speaking against Paul is speaking against the Lord.
#10
(12-17-2013, 08:13 AM)Tanachreader Wrote: Paul commissioned By the Lord
Ac:26:13: At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
Ac:26:14: And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Ac:26:15: And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
Ac:26:16: But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

Speaking against Paul is speaking against the Lord.
Deut 13:1-8 If any one preaches against Torah, they are false. The NT and Paul are not authorities for me.


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