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Gen 1:26 - What is going on here?
#11
(12-18-2013, 01:58 PM)HumblePetitioner Wrote: Sooo the 'rule' is not always 'true' in syntax but only true in translation - nouns and verbs DO NOT have to agree in number unless these instances are 'exceptions to the rule'.
The general rule is that subject and verb agree. So, if a noun is plural, then the verb will be plural as well.

Deut 10:17 shows an example where the word elohim is used twice. It is translated as Elokei (G-d), and elohim (gods), even though it is the same noun? Why? Because G-ds of gods makes no sense and shows a pluralistic/paganistic view of the true One G-d.
#12
(12-18-2013, 02:12 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(12-18-2013, 01:58 PM)HumblePetitioner Wrote: Sooo the 'rule' is not always 'true' in syntax but only true in translation - nouns and verbs DO NOT have to agree in number unless these instances are 'exceptions to the rule'.
The general rule is that subject and verb agree. So, if a noun is plural, then the verb will be plural as well.

Deut 10:17 shows an example where the word elohim is used twice. It is translated as Elokei (G-d), and elohim (gods), even though it is the same noun? Why? Because G-ds of gods makes no sense and shows a pluralistic/paganistic view of the true One G-d.

Sooo - this so-called rule is simply an exception to the rule because syntactically elohim does not always agree with the verbs it is used with - God(s) of gods makes perfect sense to me and I am adamantly mono-theistic
#13
(12-18-2013, 02:21 PM)HumblePetitioner Wrote:
(12-18-2013, 02:12 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(12-18-2013, 01:58 PM)HumblePetitioner Wrote: Sooo the 'rule' is not always 'true' in syntax but only true in translation - nouns and verbs DO NOT have to agree in number unless these instances are 'exceptions to the rule'.
The general rule is that subject and verb agree. So, if a noun is plural, then the verb will be plural as well.

Deut 10:17 shows an example where the word elohim is used twice. It is translated as Elokei (G-d), and elohim (gods), even though it is the same noun? Why? Because G-ds of gods makes no sense and shows a pluralistic/paganistic view of the true One G-d.

Sooo - this so-called rule is simply an exception to the rule because syntactically elohim does not always agree with the verbs it is used with - God(s) of gods makes perfect sense to me and I am adamantly mono-theistic
Then translate your bible that way, and see how many converts you'll win over, i.e., "Yes, I believe in a gods; but they are really one".

What I didn't say is that yes, some words in Hebrew which are plural in syntax are understood as being singular in meaning and shown so by the context: Elokim (G-d), panim (face), and chayim (life), water (mayim), are examples.

I did some new investigating and found that what was called plural of majesty to explain why elohim, when used for Hashem, means a "fullness"of deity, the current scholarship term is abstract plural. The idea is that in ancient languages such as Hebrew, Phoenician, and Akkadian, they use this idea in their words. For example in Hebrew, Gen 37:3,44:20 uses the plural for old age to describe Jacob having a child in his old age, denoting not just age but wisdom as well. We find a similar usage in Ezra 8:27, Daniel 9:23, and 2 Chr 20:25, for the term of preciousness/loved, in the plural, for a single thing. For virginity, we find the same concept in Deut 22:15,17,20. So with respect to Hashem, Elokim is used to describe His grandness above all other so called gods.

What was really interesting is that I checked in the Greek NT to see which word for god is used for Hashem. There are three words in Greek to denote god - theos (singular), theoi (plural), and theois (plural). Unless I did something wrong, there are only 6 references to the plural version for god in Greek in the NT: John 10:34, Acts 14:11, Acts 19:26, 1 Cor 8:5, John 10:35, and Acts 7:40. None of these refer to Hashem. If Hashem is a plurality as you say, why isn't a plural term used for Hashem in the NT? There are 655 references to the singular term, theos, and this is used for G-d. I corrected a mistake I had here.

Interestingly enough, when searching the Greek for Deut 6:4, the Shema, the singular word for G-d is used, theos. This is also used in Mark 12:29 where J-sus comments about G-d.
#14
(12-17-2013, 12:44 PM)Nachshon Wrote: This verse is commonly misunderstood by Christians as referring to the trinity. But, if we examine it closer, we will see that the verse speaks for itself, and that the context shows that G-d is singular.

Here are some more examples of what the Tanakh calls angels/malachim (please look at the Hebrew for malach):
1) Prophets - Haggai 1:13
2) Death - Prov 16:14
3) Plagues/wrath - Psalms 78:49
4) Winds - Psalms 35:5
5) Hashem's commands/verdicts to the 4 corners - Zech 6:5

Putting it all together now, Psalms 103:20-22, Hashem spoke to His angels in Gen 1:26, and they followed His commands. The angels were used in the creation of man's body. Hashem called to the earth, water, air, fire, and man's body was created. Hashem supplied the nefesh and the building blocks of life.

If you care to have an intelligent exchange, please respond.
I believe as well in Genesis 3:22 has been used as a reference point that Jesus existed as a trinity with G-D from the beginning of time, which to G-D; time has no beginning or end.

I believe more in verse 22 ,the author announces the separation between mans sin and YHVH. Plurality in many key verses doesn't necessarily prove G-D is plural. Such a claim would conflict against the Commandment of Sinai. We must as well understand the dialect, and expressionism of the time periods, and their wording. Mankind has used the Bible to say anything, and everything, and justify what they believe as truth.

Only the Spirit of YHVH reveals the true Meanings, but then again G-D's Spirit has been used as well to justify mankind's many good and evil deeds.To man, there are many words, and many meanings of One Word. In the end only One Word shall remain; That is Hashems.
It fears plurality leads mankind to demise! save one example ; Genesis 11:1-4
Shema Yisrael; Here oh Israel, the Lord G-D is One.

Shalom
#15
Do you want to venture what I found in the Tanakh, HumblePetitioner, using the Greek terms for god?

(12-19-2013, 08:32 AM)Azriel Wrote:
(12-17-2013, 12:44 PM)Nachshon Wrote: This verse is commonly misunderstood by Christians as referring to the trinity. But, if we examine it closer, we will see that the verse speaks for itself, and that the context shows that G-d is singular.

Here are some more examples of what the Tanakh calls angels/malachim (please look at the Hebrew for malach):
1) Prophets - Haggai 1:13
2) Death - Prov 16:14
3) Plagues/wrath - Psalms 78:49
4) Winds - Psalms 35:5
5) Hashem's commands/verdicts to the 4 corners - Zech 6:5

Putting it all together now, Psalms 103:20-22, Hashem spoke to His angels in Gen 1:26, and they followed His commands. The angels were used in the creation of man's body. Hashem called to the earth, water, air, fire, and man's body was created. Hashem supplied the nefesh and the building blocks of life.

If you care to have an intelligent exchange, please respond.
I believe as well in Genesis 3:22 has been used as a reference point that Jesus existed as a trinity with G-D from the beginning of time, which to G-D; time has no beginning or end.

I believe more in verse 22 ,the author announces the separation between mans sin and YHVH. Plurality in many key verses doesn't necessarily prove G-D is plural. Such a claim would conflict against the Commandment of Sinai. We must as well understand the dialect, and expressionism of the time periods, and their wording. Mankind has used the Bible to say anything, and everything, and justify what they believe as truth.

Only the Spirit of YHVH reveals the true Meanings, but then again G-D's Spirit has been used as well to justify mankind's many good and evil deeds.To man, there are many words, and many meanings of One Word. In the end only One Word shall remain; That is Hashems.
It fears plurality leads mankind to demise! save one example ; Genesis 11:1-4
Shema Yisrael; Here oh Israel, the Lord G-D is One.

Shalom
Just for kicks Azriel, I checked the Greek for this verse Gen 3:22 and the word, theos, the singular form for the word god is used. So, apparently the Greek translators understood the Judaic concept of G-d in this passage. And they should have since the Torah was translated by Jews into the Greek.
#16
(12-19-2013, 08:35 AM)Nachshon Wrote: Do you want to venture what I found in the Tanakh, HumblePetitioner, using the Greek terms for god?

(12-19-2013, 08:32 AM)Azriel Wrote:
(12-17-2013, 12:44 PM)Nachshon Wrote: This verse is commonly misunderstood by Christians as referring to the trinity. But, if we examine it closer, we will see that the verse speaks for itself, and that the context shows that G-d is singular.

Here are some more examples of what the Tanakh calls angels/malachim (please look at the Hebrew for malach):
1) Prophets - Haggai 1:13
2) Death - Prov 16:14
3) Plagues/wrath - Psalms 78:49
4) Winds - Psalms 35:5
5) Hashem's commands/verdicts to the 4 corners - Zech 6:5

Putting it all together now, Psalms 103:20-22, Hashem spoke to His angels in Gen 1:26, and they followed His commands. The angels were used in the creation of man's body. Hashem called to the earth, water, air, fire, and man's body was created. Hashem supplied the nefesh and the building blocks of life.

If you care to have an intelligent exchange, please respond.
I believe as well in Genesis 3:22 has been used as a reference point that Jesus existed as a trinity with G-D from the beginning of time, which to G-D; time has no beginning or end.

I believe more in verse 22 ,the author announces the separation between mans sin and YHVH. Plurality in many key verses doesn't necessarily prove G-D is plural. Such a claim would conflict against the Commandment of Sinai. We must as well understand the dialect, and expressionism of the time periods, and their wording. Mankind has used the Bible to say anything, and everything, and justify what they believe as truth.

Only the Spirit of YHVH reveals the true Meanings, but then again G-D's Spirit has been used as well to justify mankind's many good and evil deeds.To man, there are many words, and many meanings of One Word. In the end only One Word shall remain; That is Hashems.
It fears plurality leads mankind to demise! save one example ; Genesis 11:1-4
Shema Yisrael; Here oh Israel, the Lord G-D is One.

Shalom
Just for kicks Azriel, I checked the Greek for this verse Gen 3:22 and the word, theos, the singular form for the word god is used. So, apparently the Greek translators understood the Judaic concept of G-d in this passage.
Isaiah55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

Another interesting scripture I found in the Greek is Matthew 24:32“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. ""34Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away"" until all these things have happened.

In verse34 Generation is translated in Greek; Genos, or [familia];and is written in the plural form, ;Family of generations, meaning instead not one generation , but was reffering to the generations of the world age reigning from Adam into the near future of modern day Israel. I believe Israel is the key, or clock in it's final hour , although very few understand this; I find many Judaic believers as well believe we live in this time frame, how could you not, if you believe in Israel's G-D, and prophesy.

Israel shall never be driven away from it's land, or shall the world end, only one day evil shall be taken away so that Israel shall live in peace and reign over all nations; that the G-D of Israel shall reign over to a obedient Children. I think we both share the mutual desire for Peace; It is what Jesus gave his life for, whether you believe in him or not; He fought for, and I believe is still fighting for Israel's Peace that shall never end. Everything Jesus did, healings and miracles He performed He gave witness to YHVH His Father. He fought that Peace; Hashems Peace that shall never be taken from Israel again, and for those who gather with her. So many have twisted the words of Yeshua for their own wicked purposes, which of course has been done to the entire Bible. Jesus stood for One G-D; His G-D; His Father; Israel's One G-D, that the world would know Israel truly is; the chosen of the Most High! Many rabbi's believe at least in part, that Yeshua was the savior of the gentiles who leads them to YHVH.!

Do you believe Israel one day shall live eternally in perfect Peace by Hashems Hand?

The world shall never be destroyed again, but there is a new world age coming, and Hashems Power shall be shown again, much greater than Exodus, but to the entire world nations. I believe we are about to witness this,[Ezekiel 38,39] is at our doorstep, but then I don't want to swerve from this discussion of singular plurality, but in logical assumption this thread is named; What's going on here , but this still should be discussed in another thread, like the one on this forum called; what do you want to talk about, named ;end of the world continued.

Shema Yirael
#17
(12-22-2013, 07:01 AM)Azriel Wrote: The world shall never be destroyed again, but there is a new world age coming, and Hashems Power shall be shown again, much greater than Exodus, but to the entire world nations. I believe we are about to witness this,[Ezekiel 38,39] is at our doorstep, but then I don't want to swerve from this discussion of singular plurality, but in logical assumption this thread is named; What's going on here , but this still should be discussed in another thread, like the one on this forum called; what do you want to talk about, named ;end of the world continued.

Shema Yirael
I like end time events and prophecies, but I don't focus on them because I focus on the here and now, working to better myself, family, community, Israel at large, and the world.

You can discuss what you want here, though I can't say that I will join in. My purpose for this thread was to document my thoughts on the verse in question so that I don't have to research for my posts in the future.

I appreciate your words though, and your points are welll taken. Thank you for that Smile
#18
(12-22-2013, 04:48 PM)Nachshon Wrote: I like end time events and prophecies, but I don't focus on them because I focus on the here and now, working to better myself, family, community, Israel at large, and the world.

I appreciate your words though, and your points are welll taken. Thank you for that Smile
Your welcome, In my faith , we are to take no thought for tomorrow , but look to today, for sufficient unto day is the evil thereof.

In my life I have found that many events happening today are linked with the future. I am no prophet, but even the prophets were given warning of tomorrow that the people could know the danger coming, and turn their hearts after YHVH.

I believe prophesy is finished, only left to those foreseeing the events leading to what prophesy has already written, they are called watchmen, to sound the trumpets of impending danger coming upon the people. I believe too many people are so fixed on their own pleasures of the day, they make a bubble around themselves ; a perfect world, so when tomorrow comes ,their hearts will not be ready for what is coming. If you know a severe snow storm, or hurricane, or tornado is forecast for tomorrow, you should prepare today to be ready for that storm, whether it happens or not.

In a sense; the story of Anne Frank is an example; the Jewish people hid in an attic, to escape the holocaust ,and creating their own little simple world within that confined space, arguing about little issues, and conflicting temperament's , trying to set their minds away from the coming impending evil of the Nazi's.

I believe people today as well do this because the overwhelming picture of the future is too hard to bear. But to those who see and listen so shall the brides lamps be full when the groom arrives. Matthew 25:1-13 Some times when we know what tomorrow will bring, it makes us prepare for today for what is coming, so in a sense preparing for tomorrow is making ready today.

I do appreciate your thoughts as well ,my last point was placed on singular words ,verses plurality, and how the translations sometimes are misunderstood, only together may we find those by reasoning among one another.

But you are perfectly right in your intuitiveness in reminding us how important today is to live our lives to it's fullest in Hashems Righteousness .Some people look only to the future to escape who they are today. I believe it is a union between today, and knowing, and planning those things of today that will lead us to tomorrow; trusting as the faith of Abraham, sometimes not knowing why, but knowing that Hashem will always show an earnest heart after Him, the right decisions to make, and that He will always clear the path to His Love, and thanking Him for every circumstance we face, and by doing so, placing our lives in His Hands.

The last week was a good example. We supply homeless shelters, and pantries for the poor with food, and deserts, and I was on my way home to pick up my wife with my van filled to the brim . When I pulled in my driveway my van died. I was part of the way up our 2000 foot steep curving driveway in a woods covered with ice and snow. My heart sunk to think in just a few hours people would be lining up to be fed.

By chance my wife called a friend who had offered help the night before, and they rushed over with a truck and loaded the bread, right at the time the towtruck came to pickup my van, so we could get our other car out and follow them. Anyway the news was bad, my van lost it's transmission, and we both cried, not knowing how we could continue our ministry to the community.

The next day when the junkyard came to pick up my van, the driver told me to go to a certain dealership, that they had vans for very reasonable prices. When I got there , I saw a beautiful new van that was exactly the price I had money saved back for. It was like a miracle I got a new van 10 times better than before. Then the day before yesterday we had a severe flood, and it completely washed out my driveway, and our electric gate died, and we couldn't get out. Somehow I got the gate fixed, and with strength I did not have shoveled back enough rocks and gravel to get out. It was ; to say the least, stressfull. But each day and each event that happened I never lost faith the Lord would get us through the next day to come, and He did.

Without having faith today for tomorrow I would have crumbled and gave up today. I know you think our G-D is different, but The G-D we both know is Good, and helps us when our hearts are after Him to do the Works of charity His Torah leads us to. But not just a word, but the Heart of G-D, wanting genuinely to help others. I believe my G-D is not just a Name, but who He is; That is Good, that is Love; A G-D that care for us today , by giving us the faith to carry through today tomorrow, and forever no matter what blocks our paths. But as you said; Faith comes today and faith is where we must lay our trust, else tomorrow never comes. Got to run. I didn't edit this post. I hope you understand anyway.!
Shalom
#19
(12-23-2013, 08:22 AM)Azriel Wrote: The last week was a good example. We supply homeless shelters, and pantries for the poor with food, and deserts, and I was on my way home to pick up my wife with my van filled to the brim . When I pulled in my driveway my van died. I was part of the way up our 2000 foot steep curving driveway in a woods covered with ice and snow. My heart sunk to think in just a few hours people would be lining up to be fed.

By chance my wife called a friend who had offered help the night before, and they rushed over with a truck and loaded the bread, right at the time the towtruck came to pickup my van, so we could get our other car out and follow them. Anyway the news was bad, my van lost it's transmission, and we both cried, not knowing how we could continue our ministry to the community.

The next day when the junkyard came to pick up my van, the driver told me to go to a certain dealership, that they had vans for very reasonable prices. When I got there , I saw a beautiful new van that was exactly the price I had money saved back for. It was like a miracle I got a new van 10 times better than before. Then the day before yesterday we had a severe flood, and it completely washed out my driveway, and our electric gate died, and we couldn't get out. Somehow I got the gate fixed, and with strength I did not have shoveled back enough rocks and gravel to get out. It was ; to say the least, stressfull. But each day and each event that happened I never lost faith the Lord would get us through the next day to come, and He did.

Without having faith today for tomorrow I would have crumbled and gave up today. I know you think our G-D is different, but The G-D we both know is Good, and helps us when our hearts are after Him to do the Works of charity His Torah leads us to. But not just a word, but the Heart of G-D, wanting genuinely to help others. I believe my G-D is not just a Name, but who He is; That is Good, that is Love; A G-D that care for us today , by giving us the faith to carry through today tomorrow, and forever no matter what blocks our paths. But as you said; Faith comes today and faith is where we must lay our trust, else tomorrow never comes. Got to run. I didn't edit this post. I hope you understand anyway.!
Shalom
You're doing a good thing. Thanks for making the world a better place! Be well.
#20
(12-23-2013, 08:38 AM)Nachshon Wrote:
(12-23-2013, 08:22 AM)Azriel Wrote: The last week was a good example. We supply homeless shelters, and pantries for the poor with food, and deserts, and I was on my way home to pick up my wife with my van filled to the brim . When I pulled in my driveway my van died. I was part of the way up our 2000 foot steep curving driveway in a woods covered with ice and snow. My heart sunk to think in just a few hours people would be lining up to be fed.

By chance my wife called a friend who had offered help the night before, and they rushed over with a truck and loaded the bread, right at the time the towtruck came to pickup my van, so we could get our other car out and follow them. Anyway the news was bad, my van lost it's transmission, and we both cried, not knowing how we could continue our ministry to the community.

The next day when the junkyard came to pick up my van, the driver told me to go to a certain dealership, that they had vans for very reasonable prices. When I got there , I saw a beautiful new van that was exactly the price I had money saved back for. It was like a miracle I got a new van 10 times better than before. Then the day before yesterday we had a severe flood, and it completely washed out my driveway, and our electric gate died, and we couldn't get out. Somehow I got the gate fixed, and with strength I did not have shoveled back enough rocks and gravel to get out. It was ; to say the least, stressfull. But each day and each event that happened I never lost faith the Lord would get us through the next day to come, and He did.

Without having faith today for tomorrow I would have crumbled and gave up today. I know you think our G-D is different, but The G-D we both know is Good, and helps us when our hearts are after Him to do the Works of charity His Torah leads us to. But not just a word, but the Heart of G-D, wanting genuinely to help others. I believe my G-D is not just a Name, but who He is; That is Good, that is Love; A G-D that care for us today , by giving us the faith to carry through today tomorrow, and forever no matter what blocks our paths. But as you said; Faith comes today and faith is where we must lay our trust, else tomorrow never comes. Got to run. I didn't edit this post. I hope you understand anyway.!
Shalom
You're doing a good thing. Thanks for making the world a better place! Be well.
Thankyou, The Lord has changed me from a broken man into a vessel for Him, not by necessity, but by His Love that lives within me. Charity is the heart of YHVH within us.

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Matthew 5:16.


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