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The messianic prophecies are NOT fulfilled
#11
(01-15-2014, 04:39 PM)ThomasDGW Wrote: The sad truth is that, according to New Testament prophecy, people like Eliyahu who adamantly refuse to consider the evidence that Yeshua is the Messiah are going to fall for a false "messiah" when this man does only a fraction of the things the Messiah is supposed to do and will utterly ignore the proofs that he cannot be the Messiah.

Bs'd

Isn't that what you are doing right now? You are agreeing that JC did NOT fulfill the messianic prophecies. Like you say: "the rest of the prophecies can only be fulfilled when he comes."

And the prophecies that he according to you did fulfill, are not messianic prophecies, but texts which have no bearing on the messiah whatsoever.

And then you believe in a messiah who came as "to provide salvation as the Passover Lamb", a job description of the messiah which is nowhere to be found in the Tanach.

So you are falling in the trap you yourself describe.

Quote: Actually there have been already false Messiahs accepted by seemingly learned Jews, such as Bar Kochba and lately Rabbi Schneerson.

So why are you so sure you are not in the same box?
#12
Eliyahu, the key phrase in my post is: "will utterly ignore the proofs that he cannot be the Messiah." For all of the false Messiahs, you will find facts that conflict with the possibility of being the Messiah. That is not true of Jesus, and that is the answer to your last question.

The part of "are going to fall for a false "messiah" when this man does only a fraction of the things the Messiah is supposed to do" is about the irony that the same ones that are demanding to see all Messianic prophecies completely fulfilled for Jesus will themselves abandon that criterion when it seems right to them. No one should demand to see all of the Messianic prophecies fulfilled before recognizing the Messiah. As I indicated in my example, it is like requiring a long lost brother to tell him every last detail of what he should know before accepting him as his lost brother. The Torah says two or three witnesses determine a matter. You are treating Jesus like the princes of Succoth treated Gideon in Judges 8:6.

You say that those texts giving necessary conditions have no bearing on the Messiah. Wrong. The only one I referred to that you might object to is Hosea's prophecy about calling God's son out of Egypt. Yes, that does refer to Israel, but since the NT presents Jesus as God's only begotten son, Jesus must also fulfill that, not as the Messiah per se, but as God's son. The rest are indeed referring to the Messiah, the King of Israel.

Finally, the role of sin bearer as a job for the Messiah is found in Isaiah 53 and Daniel 9:26. That this role corresponds to that of a Passover Lamb comes from the NT, and from the fact that to become spiritually a son of God, one must follow the path of Israel spiritually, coming out of Egypt spiritually and having a spiritual Passover Lamb. I am not inventing things. I am not falling into any trap.
#13
(01-18-2014, 05:14 PM)ThomasDGW Wrote: Eliyahu, the key phrase in my post is: "will utterly ignore the proofs that he cannot be the Messiah." For all of the false Messiahs, you will find facts that conflict with the possibility of being the Messiah. That is not true of Jesus, and that is the answer to your last question.

Bs'd

JC cannot be the messiah, because of his claim that he was God. We know, the Tanach tells us, that God is not a man. Therefore, by making people worship him, he is leading people into idolatry. Therefore he cannot be the messiah.

JC had no human father, therefore he was not from the tribe of Judah, and not in male line a descendant of king David, therefore he was disqualified from being the messiah.

Quote:The part of "are going to fall for a false "messiah" when this man does only a fraction of the things the Messiah is supposed to do" is about the irony that the same ones that are demanding to see all Messianic prophecies completely fulfilled for Jesus will themselves abandon that criterion when it seems right to them.

The iriony is that you run after a messiah who did about nothing when it comes to fulfilling the messianic prophecies, and then you accuse others of going to do so in the future, a totally unproven assumption. You are doing right now what you accuse others of going to do in the future. Huh

Quote: No one should demand to see all of the Messianic prophecies fulfilled before recognizing the Messiah. As I indicated in my example, it is like requiring a long lost brother to tell him every last detail of what he should know before accepting him as his lost brother. The Torah says two or three witnesses determine a matter. You are treating Jesus like the princes of Succoth treated Gideon in Judges 8:6.

The point is, the real messianic prophecies are obviously NOT fulfilled.

That what JC is supposed to have fulfilled, are not messianic prophecies at all.

Quote:You say that those texts giving necessary conditions have no bearing on the Messiah. Wrong. The only one I referred to that you might object to is Hosea's prophecy about calling God's son out of Egypt. Yes, that does refer to Israel, but since the NT presents Jesus as God's only begotten son, Jesus must also fulfill that, not as the Messiah per se, but as God's son. The rest are indeed referring to the Messiah, the King of Israel.

Take Isaiah 7:14, God giving a sign to king Achaz, no bearing on the messiah whatsoever, no virgin birth.

Take Isaiah 53, NOBODY can give me any proof from Isaiah or the rest of the Tanach that it speaks about the messiah.
The proof for it speaking about Israel is plentifull.

And it is like that for practically all "messianic prophecies fulfilled by JC".
#14
(01-18-2014, 05:14 PM)ThomasDGW Wrote: Eliyahu, the key phrase in my post is: "will utterly ignore the proofs that he cannot be the Messiah." For all of the false Messiahs, you will find facts that conflict with the possibility of being the Messiah. That is not true of Jesus, and that is the answer to your last question.

Bs'd

JC cannot be the messiah, because of his claim that he was God. We know, the Tanach tells us, that God is not a man. Therefore, by making people worship him, he is leading people into idolatry. Therefore he cannot be the messiah.

JC had no human father, therefore he was not from the tribe of Judah, and not in male line a descendant of king David, therefore he was disqualified from being the messiah.

Quote:The part of "are going to fall for a false "messiah" when this man does only a fraction of the things the Messiah is supposed to do" is about the irony that the same ones that are demanding to see all Messianic prophecies completely fulfilled for Jesus will themselves abandon that criterion when it seems right to them.

The iriony is that you run after a messiah who did about nothing when it comes to fulfilling the messianic prophecies, and then you accuse others of going to do so in the future, a totally unproven assumption. You are doing right now what you accuse others of going to do in the future. Huh

Quote: No one should demand to see all of the Messianic prophecies fulfilled before recognizing the Messiah. As I indicated in my example, it is like requiring a long lost brother to tell him every last detail of what he should know before accepting him as his lost brother. The Torah says two or three witnesses determine a matter. You are treating Jesus like the princes of Succoth treated Gideon in Judges 8:6.

The point is, the real messianic prophecies are obviously NOT fulfilled.

That what JC is supposed to have fulfilled, are not messianic prophecies at all.

Quote:You say that those texts giving necessary conditions have no bearing on the Messiah. Wrong. The only one I referred to that you might object to is Hosea's prophecy about calling God's son out of Egypt. Yes, that does refer to Israel, but since the NT presents Jesus as God's only begotten son, Jesus must also fulfill that, not as the Messiah per se, but as God's son. The rest are indeed referring to the Messiah, the King of Israel.

Take Isaiah 7:14, God giving a sign to king Achaz, no bearing on the messiah whatsoever, no virgin birth.

Take Isaiah 53, NOBODY can give me any proof from Isaiah or the rest of the Tanach that it speaks about the messiah.
The proof for it speaking about Israel is plentifull.

And it is like that for practically all "messianic prophecies fulfilled by JC".
#15
Quote:Finally, the role of sin bearer as a job for the Messiah is found in Isaiah 53 and Daniel 9:26.

Isaiah 53 has no bearing on the messiah whatsoever.

Daniel 9 speaks about 2 messiah's, but not about THE messiah.

Quote: That this role corresponds to that of a Passover Lamb comes from the NT,

Right, that concept is also NOWHERE to be found in the Tanach.

Quote: and from the fact that to become spiritually a son of God, one must follow the path of Israel spiritually, coming out of Egypt spiritually and having a spiritual Passover Lamb. I am not inventing things. I am not falling into any trap.

You are following the inventions of the NT, inventions which are nowhere to be found in the Tanach.
#16
You are following a man-god who is NOWHERE to be found in the Tanach:

[SIZE="3"]“[COLOR="Purple"]If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for[/COLOR] Y-H-W-H [COLOR="Purple"]your God is testing you to know whether you love [/COLOR]Y-H-W-H [COLOR="Purple"]your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after[/COLOR] Y-H-W-H [COLOR="Purple"]your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from[/COLOR] Y-H-W-H [COLOR="Purple"]your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which[/COLOR] Y-H-W-H[COLOR="Purple"] your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst.

If anyone secretly entices you—even if it is your brother, your father’s son or your mother’s son, or your own son or daughter, or the wife you embrace, or your most intimate friend—saying, “Let us go worship other gods,” whom neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7*any of the gods of the peoples that are around you, whether near you or far away from you, from one end of the earth to the other, 8*you must not yield to or heed any such persons. Show them no pity or compassion and do not shield them. 9*But you shall surely kill them; your own hand shall be first against them to execute them, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10*Stone them to death for trying to turn you away from
Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11*Then all Israel shall hear and be afraid, and never again do any such wickedness.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

Deut 13
#17
Y-H-W-H told me about His Son Yeshua.
We worship Y-H-W-H.
All are afraid of what Y-H-W-H did to the unbelieving Jews over the last 2000 years.
Luke 21:24
Lu:21:24: And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Are you blind?


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