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The messianic prophecies are NOT fulfilled
#1
Bs'd

Let us check according to the Holy Hebrew scriptures what the messiah is supposed to do.

Micha 5:2-9; "But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off."

Here we have very clearly physical redemption from earthly enemies: "And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword", "Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off." These are very clear verses that can not be misinterpreted; when the messiah comes the Jewish enemies are going to be slaughtered. And the one coming forth from Bethlehem is to be a ruler in Israel, that is a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.

Zacheriah 9:9-10; "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."

They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace, the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any dominion at all.
#2
(01-13-2014, 10:21 PM)Eliyahu Wrote: He did not bring any peace.

Absence of warfare, violence and hatred is how most people probably define "peace." However, the most important way in which every sinner needs peace is peace (reconciliation) between himself and God; after all, we will all be in eternity far longer than we will live in this life.

That is the peace that the Lord Jesus purchased, through His sacrificial atonement on the cross, for all sinners who put their personal faith (obedient trust) in Him.

"Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you..." (John 14:27)

"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world, you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." (John 16:33)

"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." (Romans 5:1)

During His first mission on Earth, Jesus' role was to offer that peace -- peace between the sinner and God, through His payment for sins on the cross -- which is the most important peace of all, because each of us will spend eternity in Heaven or in Hell.

In contrast, the kind of peace that most people wish for -- absence of warfare -- lasts only for one's lifetime, and that is less than a century for most of us.

The time to accept the peace Jesus offers is now. When He returns someday, it will be to rule. And there will be no place to hide from His final judgment "...in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ..." (Romans 2:16).
#3
First, MAlan has a good point, that peace with God is much more important than defeating enemies. However, that is beside the point of this question.

Jesus did not completely fulfill the Messianic prophecies in his earthly life after being born in Bethlehem. Also, Eliyahu is correct in saying that simply riding into Jerusalem on a donkey does not prove that Jesus is the Messiah, just as being born in Bethlehem does not make one the Messiah. I do think that JFJ sometimes gives the wrong impression, that these prophecies are individual proofs that each should force someone to conclude that Jesus is the Messiah. No, rather, they are a list of necessary conditions, not sufficient conditions, that the Messiah must fulfill, and the New Testament accounts are going through that list. It is when you go through all of those things, that he was born in Bethlehem, that he was called out of Egypt, that he preached with wisdom, that he healed the sick, that he had zeal for the house of God, that he rode publically into Jerusalem on a donkey, etc., then you are to see that this person, Jesus, becomes more and more likely to be the Messiah. If he had been born in another city, he would be immediately disqualified, but if he still had not ridden into Jerusalem on a donkey, that would not disqualify him, yet. But he did do that, so check it off the list. The question is how many coinciding, necessary conditions must Jesus fulfill before you realize he is the Messiah? You should not say, All of them. That is being obstinate. You don't apply that attitude to other things. Think of a doctor diagnosing an illness, or a long lost brother accepting his brother's identity. Each would go through a certain number of confirmations, then he would accept the truth. That is what you should do, Eliyahu.
#4
Bs'd

They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace, the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any dominion at all.

In order to get around this problem, the Christian church invented the "second coming". However, nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is it written that the messiah would come once, get himself killed, and come again in a second coming. This is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a messiah. Nowhere in any of the above prophecies does it indicate that there will be a gap of at least 2000 years between the birth of the messiah and the redemption. Nowhere does it speak about a messiah being tortured to death and coming back thousands of years later.

Jeremiah 23:5-6; "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Jeremiah 33:14-16: "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness."

When the branch of righteousness springs forth to David, when the messiah comes, THEN, IN THOSE DAYS, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell safely. That means that it is impossible to squeeze in two thousand or more years between the coming of the messiah and the redemption of Judah and Jerusalem. Out goes the 'second coming'. However, there wasn't any redemption in the days of Jesus. Forty years after his death, in 70 CE, Jerusalem was totally destroyed by the Romans, the second Temple was burned down, and the Jews exiled. No way that the above prophecy was fulfilled.
#5
Bs'd


Isaiah 11; "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."

Also here we have a messiah who is going to kill the evil people: "And he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked." And after that we get the better world, when it says: "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them etc." This is what is supposed to happen, as soon as there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse (the father of King David) and a Branch shall grow out of his roots; that is as soon as the messiah comes. Nowhere here is mentioned that the messiah will be killed and that these prophecies will happen at least 2000 years later. On the contrary; when the messiah comes redemption comes. And also for this messianic prophecy you don't have to be a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist in order to see that it is not fulfilled. Nothing of this all was done by Jesus. Conclusion: He was not the messiah.
#6
(01-14-2014, 02:30 PM)MAlan Wrote:
(01-13-2014, 10:21 PM)Eliyahu Wrote: He did not bring any peace.

Absence of warfare, violence and hatred is how most people probably define "peace." However, the most important way in which every sinner needs peace is peace (reconciliation) between himself and God; after all, we will all be in eternity far longer than we will live in this life.

That is the peace that the Lord Jesus purchased, through His sacrificial atonement on the cross, for all sinners who put their personal faith (obedient trust) in Him.

Bs'd

The problem with your theory is of course that A: That is not what is written in the Tanach, and B: There is no way to check your claim. Just like no one can check whether or not JC is ruling on a throne in heaven, so nobody can check if JC did or did not bring peace between himself and God.

So you push aside de clear claim of the prophets in the Tanach, and put your own ciaim in place, a claim which is impossible to verify.

Who do you think you are that you can set aside the words of Gods prophets?

Why would anybody believe you?


But back to basics: It is clear that the real messianic prophecies are NOT fulfilled by JC.
#7
Eliyahu, what does the "bs'd" mean at the beginning of your posts -- literally, metaphorically, etc.?
#8
It is important to emphasize that Jesus never came as the Messiah. He came as a visitor to provide salvation as the Passover Lamb. He visited individuals and small groups before in the Torah, but taking on his human identity by being born of Mary, he made his first public visitation. Whenever the New Testament talks about the future appearance of Jesus, it states it as his "coming", the Greek word, "parousia". It never states it as his "second coming", for the simple reason that Jesus never really had a first "parousia" yet. Therefore, it is quite correct to state that the Messiah has not come yet. The Messiah is Yeshua (Jesus), he did appear, he did visit earth, many times actually, but he has not come yet. During his last visitation period, he fulfilled enough of the Messianic prophecies to show clearly that he is the Messiah, but the rest of the prophecies can only be fulfilled when he comes.

The sad truth is that, according to New Testament prophecy, people like Eliyahu who adamantly refuse to consider the evidence that Yeshua is the Messiah are going to fall for a false "messiah" when this man does only a fraction of the things the Messiah is supposed to do and will utterly ignore the proofs that he cannot be the Messiah. Actually there have been already false Messiahs accepted by seemingly learned Jews, such as Bar Kochba and lately Rabbi Schneerson.
#9
(01-15-2014, 02:50 PM)MAlan Wrote: Eliyahu, what does the "bs'd" mean at the beginning of your posts -- literally, metaphorically, etc.?

Bs'd

It's an abbreviation of the Aramaic expression "ba siata desmaya", and that means "With the help of Heaven".
#10
(01-13-2014, 10:21 PM)Eliyahu Wrote: He did not bring any peace, the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any dominion at all.

1. It does say he will "be" the peace, not "bring" the peace. With all of Judaism's "it is a mistranslation" they sure misread and change words altogether.

2. In the book of Daniel it says the Anointed one will be cut off, but not for himself. Daniel 9:26
26. And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one will be cut off, and he will be no more, and the people of the coming monarch will destroy the city and the Sanctuary, and his end will come about by inundation, and until the end of the war, it will be cut off into desolation.

After Jesus was crucified, Rome sacked Jerusalem in 70AD. And the dispersion took place up until May 14, 1948. Jesus fits that timeline.


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