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Is there any proof from the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah?
#11
Bs'd

We're getting off track.

Again: Can anybody give me some proof from Isaiah or the rest of the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah?
#12
If the servant is Israel, Then Israel cant exist anymore, because it was buried ...

Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

And was Israel free of violence and deceit...
#13
(01-18-2014, 08:45 AM)Eliyahu Wrote: Bs'd

We're getting off track.

Again: Can anybody give me some proof from Isaiah or the rest of the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah?

http://forums.jewsforjesus.org/thread-927.html
and
"His own people would not believe. Isaiah 53:1 John 12:37-38"
"He hath no form nor comeliness. Isaiah 53:2 Philippians 2:7-8"
"He is despised. Isaiah 53:3 Luke 4:28-29"
"He is rejected. Isaiah 53:3 Matthew 27:21-23"
"Have great sorrow and grief. Isaiah 53:3 Luke 22:42-44"
"Men would hide from being associated with Messiah. Isaiah 53:3 Mark 14:50-52"
"Bore our sins. Isaiah 53:4 1 Peter 2:24"
"Thought to be cursed by God. Isaiah 53:4 Matthew 27:41-43"
"Paid the penalty for our transgressions. Isaiah 53:5 Luke 23:33"
"Messiah's sacrifice would bring reconciliation between man and God. Isaiah 53:5 Colossians 1:20"
"Messiah's back would be whipped. Isaiah 53:5 Matthew 27:26"
"The LORD hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all. Isaiah 53:6 Romans 5:1-21"
"Oppressed and afflicted. Isaiah 53:7 Matthew 27:27-31"
"Silent before His accusers. Isaiah 53:7 Matthew 27:12-14"
"He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter. Isaiah 53:7 John 1:29"
"Taken from prison and from judgment. Isaiah 53:8 John 19:1-31"
"Was cut off out of the land of the living. Isaiah 53:8 Matthew 27:35"
"Die for the sins of the world. Isaiah 53:8-10 1 John 2:2"
"Buried in a rich man's grave. Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:57-61"
"Had done no violence. Isaiah 53:9 Mark 15:3"
"Neither was any deceit in His mouth. Isaiah 53:9 John 18:38"
"God's will that Messiah would die for all mankind. Isaiah 53:10 John 18:11"
"An offering for sin. Isaiah 53:10 Matthew 20:28"
"Resurrected, live and reign forever. Isaiah 53:10 Acts 2:24-36"
"Prosper. Isaiah 53:10 John 17:1-5"
"God shall be satisfied with the sacrifice of Messiah. Isaiah 53:11 John 12:27"
"God's servant. Isaiah 53:11 Romans 5:18-19"
"Justify man before God. Isaiah 53:11 Romans 5:8-9"
"The sin-bearer for all mankind. Isaiah 53:11-12 Hebrews 9:28"
"Messiah exalted above all. Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 28:18"
"Give up His life to save believers. Isaiah 53:12 Luke 23:46"
"Numbered with the transgressors. Isaiah 53:12 Luke 23:32"
"Intercede to God for the transgressors. Isaiah 53:12 Luke 23:34"

(01-17-2014, 03:38 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(01-17-2014, 03:12 PM)Tanachreader Wrote:
(01-17-2014, 01:43 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(01-17-2014, 12:04 PM)Tanachreader Wrote:
(01-17-2014, 07:03 AM)Nachshon Wrote: It is interesting that you bring this point up because in Isa 53:9, the Hebrew word "bemotaiv", deaths, is used. Since the word is plural, this cannot be a reference to J-sus since Christians all agree that he died only once since his atonement was perfect.
Isa:53:9: And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isaiah 53:9 uses the Hebrew word "maveth" for death
death (natural or violent); concretely, the dead, their place or state (hades); figuratively, pestilence, ruin:--(be) dead((-ly)), death, die(-d).
Why don't you look at the NIV Interlinear Hebrew Bible for this verse. The form of maveth as you state above is plural in Isa 53:9, thus your J-sus died plural deaths.
They are still trying to fix the niv, what a mess
Throw it away
That's okay. Learn some Hebrew so you'll know the truth. You can see Isa 53:9 fairly translated at http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInter..._Index.htm. Though, they messed up Isa 53:8.
You learn Hebrew so you can change the truth.
#14
(01-18-2014, 08:27 PM)Tanachreader Wrote:
(01-17-2014, 03:38 PM)Nachshon Wrote: That's okay. Learn some Hebrew so you'll know the truth. You can see Isa 53:9 fairly translated at http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInter..._Index.htm. Though, they messed up Isa 53:8.
You learn Hebrew so you can change the truth.
Please show me where I made an error, otherwise it's best to not say anything.
#15
(01-18-2014, 08:27 PM)Tanachreader Wrote:
(01-18-2014, 08:45 AM)Eliyahu Wrote: Bs'd

We're getting off track.

Again: Can anybody give me some proof from Isaiah or the rest of the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah?

http://forums.jewsforjesus.org/thread-927.html
and
"His own people would not believe. Isaiah 53:1 John 12:37-38"
"He hath no form nor comeliness. Isaiah 53:2 Philippians 2:7-8"
"He is despised. Isaiah 53:3 Luke 4:28-29"
"He is rejected. Isaiah 53:3 Matthew 27:21-23"

Bs'd

What I'm asking for is this: "some proof from Isaiah or the rest of the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah"

What I get is 30+ references from the NT, which are supposed to proof that the servant was the messiah.
But that's not what I want. I want some proof from THE TANACH that the servant is the messiah. Because it is easy enough to write a book in such a way that it looks like all kind of passages from the Tanach are fulfilled.

Even the Muslims claim that the suffering servant is Mohammed, and if you ask for proof they point to the Quran like you point to the NT.

So I want proof from Isaiah or the rest of the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.

Can you give me some please?

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Quote:
(01-18-2014, 08:27 PM)Tanachreader Wrote:
(01-18-2014, 08:45 AM)Eliyahu Wrote: Bs'd

They are still trying to fix the niv, what a mess
Throw it away
That's okay. Learn some Hebrew so you'll know the truth. You can see Isa 53:9 fairly translated at http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInter..._Index.htm. Though, they messed up Isa 53:8.
You learn Hebrew so you can change the truth.

Bs'd

TR, if you want to see the truth, you should do a course Biblical Hebrew. You don't need that much skill to figure out the basics.

You seem to have a lot of interest in God and the Bible, so go and do a course Biblical Hebrew. It really is the only way to see the truth.

If you don't do it, you will keep on falling victim to bad inaccurate translations.

It's easier than it looks. Go for it!
#16
(01-18-2014, 09:54 PM)Eliyahu Wrote:
(01-18-2014, 08:27 PM)Tanachreader Wrote:
(01-18-2014, 08:45 AM)Eliyahu Wrote: Bs'd

We're getting off track.

Again: Can anybody give me some proof from Isaiah or the rest of the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah?

http://forums.jewsforjesus.org/thread-927.html
and
"His own people would not believe. Isaiah 53:1 John 12:37-38"
"He hath no form nor comeliness. Isaiah 53:2 Philippians 2:7-8"
"He is despised. Isaiah 53:3 Luke 4:28-29"
"He is rejected. Isaiah 53:3 Matthew 27:21-23"

Bs'd

What I'm asking for is this: "some proof from Isaiah or the rest of the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah"

What I get is 30+ references from the NT, which are supposed to proof that the servant was the messiah.
But that's not what I want. I want some proof from THE TANACH that the servant is the messiah. Because it is easy enough to write a book in such a way that it looks like all kind of passages from the Tanach are fulfilled.

Even the Muslims claim that the suffering servant is Mohammed, and if you ask for proof they point to the Quran like you point to the NT.

So I want proof from Isaiah or the rest of the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.

Can you give me some please?

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Quote:
(01-18-2014, 08:27 PM)Tanachreader Wrote:
(01-18-2014, 08:45 AM)Eliyahu Wrote: Bs'd

They are still trying to fix the niv, what a mess
Throw it away
That's okay. Learn some Hebrew so you'll know the truth. You can see Isa 53:9 fairly translated at http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInter..._Index.htm. Though, they messed up Isa 53:8.
You learn Hebrew so you can change the truth.

Bs'd

TR, if you want to see the truth, you should do a course Biblical Hebrew. You don't need that much skill to figure out the basics.

You seem to have a lot of interest in God and the Bible, so go and do a course Biblical Hebrew. It really is the only way to see the truth.

If you don't do it, you will keep on falling victim to bad inaccurate translations.

It's easier than it looks. Go for it!

You think highly of yourself, if anything YOUR statement says that you know more Biblical Hebrew than Jesus, the Baptist and Paul as Jesus said:
Lu:24:44: And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
#17
(01-19-2014, 10:49 AM)Tanachreader Wrote: You think highly of yourself, if anything YOUR statement says that you know more Biblical Hebrew than Jesus, the Baptist and Paul as Jesus said:
Lu:24:44: And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
It's ironic you say this given that these verses were written in Greek. It still doesn't take away from the fact that you should learn the original language to know if the translation is correct.

Since Isa 53:9 says "deaths" in the Hebrew, and you quote Luke above, please tell me how many times J-sus died since he fulfilled this prophecy?
#18
(01-19-2014, 11:33 AM)Nachshon Wrote:
(01-19-2014, 10:49 AM)Tanachreader Wrote: You think highly of yourself, if anything YOUR statement says that you know more Biblical Hebrew than Jesus, the Baptist and Paul as Jesus said:
Lu:24:44: And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
It's ironic you say this given that these verses were written in Greek. It still doesn't take away from the fact that you should learn the original language to know if the translation is correct.

Since Isa 53:9 says "deaths" in the Hebrew, and you quote Luke above, please tell me how many times J-sus died since he fulfilled this prophecy?
Where in the world do you see deaths in the ancient Hebrew?

Isa 53:9 says "death" in the Hebrew even in the Qumran written 100 BCE

Isaiah 53:9 uses the Hebrew word "maveth" for death

The NIV Interlinear Hebrew-English Old Testament. 4 vols. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1979-85. Published in a single volume and with a new introduction in 1987. The Hebrew text is reproduced from the BHS. Kohlenberger’s interlinear translation is, as he puts it, “based on the vocabulary of the NIV” (introduction, xix), and so in many places it mimics the “dynamic equivalence” of the NIV rather than giving a literal translation. Thus the ordinary character and purpose of an interlinear is defeated at many points. For example, in Exodus 29:12 the NIV follows the Septuagint interpretation — “the rest of the blood you shall pour out,” instead of giving a literal translation of the Hebrew, “all of the blood you shall pour out;” and so Kohlenberger puts the English gloss “rest of” under the Hebrew word that means “all” in his interlinear translation, as if the word literally meant “rest of.” The reasons for this inaccuracy of the interlinear translation are unclear, but a possible reason is indicated in the introduction, where Kohlenberger nervously advises readers that nothing in the interlinear translation should be construed in such a way as to call into question the accuracy of the NIV.
...
Errors of interpretation like this are serious faults in an interlinear translation, and they bring into question the competence of the editor. He seems to have relied upon the NIV in making the interlinear translation, without enough independent knowledge of Hebrew to see where the NIV departs from the BHS text.
http://www.bible-researcher.com/ot-bibliography.html
#19
(01-19-2014, 11:33 AM)Nachshon Wrote: ...

Since Isa 53:9 says "deaths" in the Hebrew, and you quote Luke above, please tell me how many times J-sus died since he fulfilled this prophecy?

I Peter 3:18 speaks of Jesus being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, so there we have the idea of a spiritual death and a physical death. In I Corinthians 15:31, the Apostle Paul stated that he died daily. If you read through Romans 6-8 you will find the concept of death applied in many different applications. I would say that Jesus died twice, but in other aspects he could have died more than that. In any case, this is not a problem at all, once we realize that there is more to death than just the death of the body.

The main proof that Isaiah 53 speaks of the Messiah is that it does not fit Israel, but it fits the Messiah perfectly. Israel was not cut off out of the land of the living. Many Israelites were cut off, but if you are trying to make this fit the nationa as a whole, then you have to be consistent in applying the cutting off to the whole nation. The nation of Israel, as a nation, is immortal. Israel cannot say that they have done no violence, since the prophets told on them. The LORD never laid on Israel the iniquity of gentiles. Israel never justified the gentiles by bearing their iniquitites.
#20
(01-19-2014, 10:49 AM)Tanachreader Wrote: You think highly of yourself, if anything YOUR statement says that you know more Biblical Hebrew than Jesus, the Baptist and Paul as Jesus said:
Lu:24:44: And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Bs'd

Maybe he said so, but we know that he did NOT fulfill the messianic prophecies, so he failed in this statement: "that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me".

Even somebody who doesn't know Biblical Hebrew can see that.

(01-19-2014, 01:15 PM)Tanachreader Wrote: Where in the world do you see deaths in the ancient Hebrew?

Bs'd

Look here: http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInter..._Index.htm There you see a CHRISTIAN interlinear, that is the Hebrew text with underneath every Hebrew word an English translation.
Go to Isaiah 53, look in vers 9, and there you see written the word "bemotav", there transliterated as "b.mthi.u", and underneath that is written "in.deaths-of.him"

So that is DEATHS, which is plural.

Quote:Isa 53:9 says "death" in the Hebrew even in the Qumran written 100 BCE
[/qote]

Show me please.

[quote]Isaiah 53:9 uses the Hebrew word "maveth" for death

And to be exact; the plural form of that word.
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(01-19-2014, 05:39 PM)ThomasDGW Wrote: The main proof that Isaiah 53 speaks of the Messiah is that it does not fit Israel,

Bs'd

So your proof is: "It doesn't fit Israel, therefore it has to be the messiah.

And what about Muhammed, like the Moslims claim? And what about billions of other people?

What you are saying is that there is not the slightest proof that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.

Of course I knew that already, but now it is confirmed.

But I give the Christians here some more time to come up with proof from the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah. If nothing is forthcoming, we can move on from the fact that there is not the slightest indication, let alone a proof, that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.

Quote: but it fits the Messiah perfectly.

No it does not. There is in the Tanach nowhere a concept to be found that the messiah is going to suffer and die in order to save mankind from its sins. Just doesn't exist.

So it is not that it fits the messiah perfectly, it only fits the Christian assumptions about the messiah perfectly. Assumptions which are nowhere to be found in the Tanach.


The rest of your objections why it cannot fit Israel, we get to later. One thing at a time.

Let's first establish the fact that there is not the slightest proof in the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.

Once that fact is clear, then it is also clear that the whole Christian idea that it speaks about the messiah, is made up out of thin air, without any Biblical support.

Kind of like the trinity.
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