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Is there any proof from the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah?
#21
(01-19-2014, 05:39 PM)ThomasDGW Wrote:
(01-19-2014, 11:33 AM)Nachshon Wrote: ...

Since Isa 53:9 says "deaths" in the Hebrew, and you quote Luke above, please tell me how many times J-sus died since he fulfilled this prophecy?

I Peter 3:18 speaks of Jesus being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, so there we have the idea of a spiritual death and a physical death. In I Corinthians 15:31, the Apostle Paul stated that he died daily. If you read through Romans 6-8 you will find the concept of death applied in many different applications. I would say that Jesus died twice, but in other aspects he could have died more than that. In any case, this is not a problem at all, once we realize that there is more to death than just the death of the body.
Of course it is a problem because if J-sus died more than one physical death, then the book of Hebrews is hog-wash. A spiritual death is not implied at all in Isa 53, otherwise Israel could easily be understood as well.

(01-19-2014, 05:39 PM)ThomasDGW Wrote: The main proof that Isaiah 53 speaks of the Messiah is that it does not fit Israel, but it fits the Messiah perfectly. Israel was not cut off out of the land of the living. Many Israelites were cut off, but if you are trying to make this fit the nationa as a whole, then you have to be consistent in applying the cutting off to the whole nation. The nation of Israel, as a nation, is immortal. Israel cannot say that they have done no violence, since the prophets told on them. The LORD never laid on Israel the iniquity of gentiles. Israel never justified the gentiles by bearing their iniquitites.
Zeph 3:11-13 refers to the remnant of Israel as not speaking lies and being without deceit.

Psalms 44:11-22 refers to the remnant of Israel as sheep.

Israel/remnant has suffered as a result of the nations sins against them. All you have to do is look at history to see how the Jews have been treated in any country they have lived in.

As a result of Israel's suffering and future redemption, the nations will come to the true knowledge of G-d, Zech 8:13,23

You have said before that Israel is mortal, because we will not continue as a nation, and neither will the Torah/covenant. Why have you changed your tune?
#22
Joh 5:39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
Joh 5:40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
#23
(01-20-2014, 02:30 AM)IamBenny Wrote: Joh 5:39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
Joh 5:40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Bs'd

I come to the one and only true God Y-H-W-H in order to have life.
#24
(01-19-2014, 01:15 PM)Tanachreader Wrote: Where in the world do you see deaths in the ancient Hebrew?

Isa 53:9 says "death" in the Hebrew even in the Qumran written 100 BCE

Isaiah 53:9 uses the Hebrew word "maveth" for death
I think you meant "moot" (Gen 2:17), or "mot" (Gen 20:7), for die, because the "vav" serves as a vowel in this word, not a consonant. I don't think there is a root word pronounced as "maveth".

בְּמֹתָ֑יו means "deaths", in Isa 53:9. A basic knowledge of Hebrew would prove this to you.

Most english translations mistranslate this verse, as is common in the Christian Bible.
#25
(01-20-2014, 08:25 AM)Nachshon Wrote:
(01-19-2014, 01:15 PM)Tanachreader Wrote: Where in the world do you see deaths in the ancient Hebrew?

Isa 53:9 says "death" in the Hebrew even in the Qumran written 100 BCE

Isaiah 53:9 uses the Hebrew word "maveth" for death
I think you meant "moot" (Gen 2:17), or "mot" (Gen 20:7), for die, because the "vav" serves as a vowel in this word, not a consonant. I don't think there is a word "maveth".

בְּמֹתָ֑יו means "deaths", in Isa 53:9. A basic knowledge of Hebrew would prove this to you.

Most english translations mistranslate this verse, as is common in the Christian Bible.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/...aveth.html

Everybody is stupid but you!
#26
(01-20-2014, 09:28 AM)Tanachreader Wrote:
(01-20-2014, 08:25 AM)Nachshon Wrote:
(01-19-2014, 01:15 PM)Tanachreader Wrote: Where in the world do you see deaths in the ancient Hebrew?

Isa 53:9 says "death" in the Hebrew even in the Qumran written 100 BCE

Isaiah 53:9 uses the Hebrew word "maveth" for death
I think you meant "moot" (Gen 2:17), or "mot" (Gen 20:7), for die, because the "vav" serves as a vowel in this word, not a consonant. I don't think there is a word "maveth".

בְּמֹתָ֑יו means "deaths", in Isa 53:9. A basic knowledge of Hebrew would prove this to you.

Most english translations mistranslate this verse, as is common in the Christian Bible.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/...aveth.html

Everybody is stupid but you!
The Hebrew shoresh, root word, is "mem vav tav", for death. The word though is pronounced as "mot" or "moot" depending on the vowel points. It is not pronounced as maveth. Just a quick glance at the tool you are using shows that in Gen 21:16, 25:11, 26:18, 27:2, 27:7, 27:10, 50:16, all of these verses has the word "death" or "died" pronounced as "mot" in Hebrew.

You're embarrasing yourself. Please stop.
#27
(01-20-2014, 10:09 AM)Nachshon Wrote:
(01-20-2014, 09:28 AM)Tanachreader Wrote:
(01-20-2014, 08:25 AM)Nachshon Wrote:
(01-19-2014, 01:15 PM)Tanachreader Wrote: Where in the world do you see deaths in the ancient Hebrew?

Isa 53:9 says "death" in the Hebrew even in the Qumran written 100 BCE

Isaiah 53:9 uses the Hebrew word "maveth" for death
I think you meant "moot" (Gen 2:17), or "mot" (Gen 20:7), for die, because the "vav" serves as a vowel in this word, not a consonant. I don't think there is a word "maveth".

בְּמֹתָ֑יו means "deaths", in Isa 53:9. A basic knowledge of Hebrew would prove this to you.

Most english translations mistranslate this verse, as is common in the Christian Bible.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/...aveth.html

Everybody is stupid but you!
The Hebrew shoresh, root word, is "mem vav tav", for death. The word though is pronounced as "mot" or "moot" depending on the vowel points. It is not pronounced as maveth. Just a quick glance at the tool you are using shows that in Gen 21:16, 25:11, 26:18, 27:2, 27:7, 27:10, 50:16, all of these verses has the word "death" or "died" pronounced as "mot" in Hebrew.

You're embarrasing yourself. Please stop.
You misspelled embarrassing!
Just a quick glance at the tool I wrote years ago my KJV Bible which I implemented Strong's Greek and Hebrew Lex.
Ge:21:16:
25:11, 26:18, 27:2, 27:7, 27:10, 50:16 ... death 4194
They ALL USE 4194 which is Maveth
Big Grin
SO YOUR WRONG AGAIN!
Brown, Driver, Briggs and Gesenius. "Hebrew Lexicon entry for Maveth".
death, dying, Death (personified), realm of the dead
death
death by violence (as a penalty)
state of death, place of death
Phonetic Spelling maw'-veth
Word Origin muwth mooth
Definition
to die, kill, have one executed
(Qal)
to die
to die (as penalty), be put to death
to die, perish (of a nation)
to die prematurely (by neglect of wise moral conduct)
(Polel) to kill, put to death, dispatch
(Hiphil) to kill, put to death
(Hophal)
to be killed, be put to death
to die prematurely


You're embarrassing yourself. Please stop.
#28
(01-20-2014, 11:37 AM)Tanachreader Wrote: You misspelled embarrassing!
Just a quick glance at the tool I wrote years ago my KJV Bible which I implemented Strong's Greek and Hebrew Lex.
Ge:21:16:
25:11, 26:18, 27:2, 27:7, 27:10, 50:16 ... death 4194
They ALL USE 4194 which is Maveth
Big Grin
SO YOUR WRONG AGAIN!
How is it pronounced, Tanachreader?
#29
(01-20-2014, 12:06 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(01-20-2014, 11:37 AM)Tanachreader Wrote: You misspelled embarrassing!
Just a quick glance at the tool I wrote years ago my KJV Bible which I implemented Strong's Greek and Hebrew Lex.
Ge:21:16:
25:11, 26:18, 27:2, 27:7, 27:10, 50:16 ... death 4194
They ALL USE 4194 which is Maveth
Big Grin
SO YOUR WRONG AGAIN!
How is it pronounced, Tanachreader?

Strong's #4194: maveth (pronounced maw'-veth)
#30
(01-20-2014, 12:32 PM)Tanachreader Wrote:
(01-20-2014, 12:06 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(01-20-2014, 11:37 AM)Tanachreader Wrote: You misspelled embarrassing!
Just a quick glance at the tool I wrote years ago my KJV Bible which I implemented Strong's Greek and Hebrew Lex.
Ge:21:16:
25:11, 26:18, 27:2, 27:7, 27:10, 50:16 ... death 4194
They ALL USE 4194 which is Maveth
Big Grin
SO YOUR WRONG AGAIN!
How is it pronounced, Tanachreader?

Strong's #4194: maveth (pronounced maw'-veth)
A Hebrew root word doesn't have vowel points, so you really can't pronounce it. That's why I told you that the root in question is pronounced as mot and moot given the vowels points in the verses you quoted from your tool.

Did you look to see how the root/word is pronounced in those verses?


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