Bible Options Bible Study Software
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Is there any proof from the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah?
#31
(01-20-2014, 12:39 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(01-20-2014, 12:32 PM)Tanachreader Wrote:
(01-20-2014, 12:06 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(01-20-2014, 11:37 AM)Tanachreader Wrote: You misspelled embarrassing!
Just a quick glance at the tool I wrote years ago my KJV Bible which I implemented Strong's Greek and Hebrew Lex.
Ge:21:16:
25:11, 26:18, 27:2, 27:7, 27:10, 50:16 ... death 4194
They ALL USE 4194 which is Maveth
Big Grin
SO YOUR WRONG AGAIN!
How is it pronounced, Tanachreader?

Strong's #4194: maveth (pronounced maw'-veth)
A Hebrew root word doesn't have vowel points, so you really can't pronounce it. That's why I told you that the root in question is pronounced as mot and moot given the vowels points in the verses you quoted from your tool.

Did you look to see how the root/word is pronounced in those verses?

Do you see where you are wrong when you wrote:
Since Isa 53:9 says "deaths" in the Hebrew, and you quote Luke above, please tell me how many times J-sus died since he fulfilled this prophecy?

maveth has not been mistranslated, the Hebrew word "bemotaiv", deaths is what you claimed.
Your being difficult!
#32
(01-20-2014, 12:58 PM)Tanachreader Wrote:
(01-20-2014, 12:39 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(01-20-2014, 12:32 PM)Tanachreader Wrote:
(01-20-2014, 12:06 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(01-20-2014, 11:37 AM)Tanachreader Wrote: You misspelled embarrassing!
Just a quick glance at the tool I wrote years ago my KJV Bible which I implemented Strong's Greek and Hebrew Lex.
Ge:21:16:
25:11, 26:18, 27:2, 27:7, 27:10, 50:16 ... death 4194
They ALL USE 4194 which is Maveth
Big Grin
SO YOUR WRONG AGAIN!
How is it pronounced, Tanachreader?

Strong's #4194: maveth (pronounced maw'-veth)
A Hebrew root word doesn't have vowel points, so you really can't pronounce it. That's why I told you that the root in question is pronounced as mot and moot given the vowels points in the verses you quoted from your tool.

Did you look to see how the root/word is pronounced in those verses?

Do you see where you are wrong when you wrote:
Since Isa 53:9 says "deaths" in the Hebrew, and you quote Luke above, please tell me how many times J-sus died since he fulfilled this prophecy?

maveth has not been mistranslated, the Hebrew word "bemotaiv", deaths is what you claimed.
Your being difficult!
I can't believe you're not seeing this clearly. Bemotaiv, has "mot"/death in the middle of the word, not "maveth", and is pronounced like the word "moat". The "yud" at the end means it is plural, with the "vav" indicating that the subject is male. Thus, "in his deaths". There's no escaping this.
#33
(01-20-2014, 01:13 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(01-20-2014, 12:58 PM)Tanachreader Wrote:
(01-20-2014, 12:39 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(01-20-2014, 12:32 PM)Tanachreader Wrote:
(01-20-2014, 12:06 PM)Nachshon Wrote: How is it pronounced, Tanachreader?

Strong's #4194: maveth (pronounced maw'-veth)
A Hebrew root word doesn't have vowel points, so you really can't pronounce it. That's why I told you that the root in question is pronounced as mot and moot given the vowels points in the verses you quoted from your tool.

Did you look to see how the root/word is pronounced in those verses?

Do you see where you are wrong when you wrote:
Since Isa 53:9 says "deaths" in the Hebrew, and you quote Luke above, please tell me how many times J-sus died since he fulfilled this prophecy?

maveth has not been mistranslated, the Hebrew word "bemotaiv", deaths is what you claimed.
Your being difficult!
I can't believe you're not seeing this clearly. Bemotaiv, has "mot"/death in the middle of the word, not "maveth", and is pronounced like the word "moat". The "yud" at the end means it is plural, with the "vav" indicating that the subject is male. Thus, "in his deaths". There's no escaping this.

niv
#34
(01-20-2014, 03:01 PM)Tanachreader Wrote:
(01-20-2014, 01:13 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(01-20-2014, 12:58 PM)Tanachreader Wrote:
(01-20-2014, 12:39 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(01-20-2014, 12:32 PM)Tanachreader Wrote: Strong's #4194: maveth (pronounced maw'-veth)
A Hebrew root word doesn't have vowel points, so you really can't pronounce it. That's why I told you that the root in question is pronounced as mot and moot given the vowels points in the verses you quoted from your tool.

Did you look to see how the root/word is pronounced in those verses?

Do you see where you are wrong when you wrote:
Since Isa 53:9 says "deaths" in the Hebrew, and you quote Luke above, please tell me how many times J-sus died since he fulfilled this prophecy?

maveth has not been mistranslated, the Hebrew word "bemotaiv", deaths is what you claimed.
Your being difficult!
I can't believe you're not seeing this clearly. Bemotaiv, has "mot"/death in the middle of the word, not "maveth", and is pronounced like the word "moat". The "yud" at the end means it is plural, with the "vav" indicating that the subject is male. Thus, "in his deaths". There's no escaping this.

niv
The tool you referenced, your tool, http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/...aveth.html, shows bemotaiv as well. Just search under Isa 53:9. Of course, the english translation is incorrect because the word is plural.
#35
(01-20-2014, 03:10 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(01-20-2014, 03:01 PM)Tanachreader Wrote:
(01-20-2014, 01:13 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(01-20-2014, 12:58 PM)Tanachreader Wrote:
(01-20-2014, 12:39 PM)Nachshon Wrote: A Hebrew root word doesn't have vowel points, so you really can't pronounce it. That's why I told you that the root in question is pronounced as mot and moot given the vowels points in the verses you quoted from your tool.

Did you look to see how the root/word is pronounced in those verses?

Do you see where you are wrong when you wrote:
Since Isa 53:9 says "deaths" in the Hebrew, and you quote Luke above, please tell me how many times J-sus died since he fulfilled this prophecy?

maveth has not been mistranslated, the Hebrew word "bemotaiv", deaths is what you claimed.
Your being difficult!
I can't believe you're not seeing this clearly. Bemotaiv, has "mot"/death in the middle of the word, not "maveth", and is pronounced like the word "moat". The "yud" at the end means it is plural, with the "vav" indicating that the subject is male. Thus, "in his deaths". There's no escaping this.

niv
The tool you referenced, your tool, http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/...aveth.html, shows bemotaiv as well. Just search under Isa 53:9. Of course, the english translation is incorrect because the word is plural.
The word is death not deaths also:
Isaiah 53:9
Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Israel was always referred to as she!Smile
Jer:31:32: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

where is Israel called a he?
#36
(01-20-2014, 04:07 PM)Tanachreader Wrote: The word is death not deaths also:
Isaiah 53:9
Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
What does a "yud" and "vav" indicate at the end of a Hebrew word?

(01-20-2014, 04:07 PM)Tanachreader Wrote: Israel was always referred to as she!Smile
Jer:31:32: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

where is Israel called a he?
Isa 44:21 the word servant, eved, is in the masculine form. The other servant verses are the same.

Hos 11:1 is a great example. I guess J-sus didn't fulfill this because he's really a she with female hands from Psalms 22, since Israel is always referred to as a she?
#37
Eliyahu and Nachshon, you must have a lot of time to waste. You are arguing like little children. I said that my MAIN proof is that Isaiah 53 does not fit Israel, and I get back from Eliyahu, "Aha, like I thought, you have no proof because that is no proof. It could be Muhammed." Uh, no, children, Muhammed was not born in Bethlehem. You could have figured that out before trying to drop loads on me. Then to counter my claim that Israel certainly cannot say that they have done no sin, I get from Nachshon Zephaniah 3, saying that in the future, the remnant of Israel will be without sin. That is incoherent. Then to put the icing on the cake, Nachshon brings up his stubborn insistence on reading false things into what I said, to say that I cannot claim that Israel is immortal because I claimed before that Israel was not immortal. Besides the fact that Israel changing its status in the new heavens and new earth is not the death of Israel, the important thing is that Nachshon DOES believe that Israel is immortal, contrary to the suffering servant of Isaiah 53, and instead of attempting to address that problem, he chose rather to take glee in telling me I made a boo-boo. I do not wish to waste more time on this kind of childish arguing.
#38
(01-20-2014, 05:04 AM)Eliyahu Wrote:
(01-20-2014, 02:30 AM)IamBenny Wrote: Joh 5:39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
Joh 5:40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Bs'd

I come to the one and only true God Y-H-W-H in order to have life.
Yes the Scripture testify of Yeshua..
#39
(01-20-2014, 05:32 PM)ThomasDGW Wrote: Eliyahu and Nachshon, you must have a lot of time to waste. You are arguing like little children. I said that my MAIN proof is that Isaiah 53 does not fit Israel, and I get back from Eliyahu, "Aha, like I thought, you have no proof because that is no proof. It could be Muhammed." Uh, no, children, Muhammed was not born in Bethlehem. You could have figured that out before trying to drop loads on me. Then to counter my claim that Israel certainly cannot say that they have done no sin, I get from Nachshon Zephaniah 3, saying that in the future, the remnant of Israel will be without sin. That is incoherent. Then to put the icing on the cake, Nachshon brings up his stubborn insistence on reading false things into what I said, to say that I cannot claim that Israel is immortal because I claimed before that Israel was not immortal. Besides the fact that Israel changing its status in the new heavens and new earth is not the death of Israel, the important thing is that Nachshon DOES believe that Israel is immortal, contrary to the suffering servant of Isaiah 53, and instead of attempting to address that problem, he chose rather to take glee in telling me I made a boo-boo. I do not wish to waste more time on this kind of childish arguing.
Fortunately, the fact that the remnant of Israel is willing to go through what it is, it will see its days prolonged and its seed, Isa 53:10, something J-sus can't do.

No one has asked you to reply. Israel is still here and always will be. I did make a typo in our previous replies in this thread, in that I quoted you as saying Israel is "immortal", when previously you have said in other threads that Israel will die out as a nation. I corrected that. This past post you said that Israel cannot be the servant because Israel is immortal, a change from your previous stance in other threads. I don't see why you're getting so dramatic about nothing.

As I told you before in the thread "Yeshua and the Red Heifer", I would be creating other threads and I invite you to reply. Otherwise, I agree. If you don't have anything of substance to say, then your wasting everyone's time. Bye-bye.
#40
(01-20-2014, 09:28 AM)Tanachreader Wrote: Everybody is stupid but you!

Bs'd

No TR, it is not a matter of the Christian translators being stupid, it is a matter of them twisting the translations in order to make them fit their religion.

You are now trying to debate Hebrew while you cannot even read it, and yes, that is embarrassing.

So go and do that course Biblical Hebrew, then you can join in and debate the Hebrew, and see how the translations are corrupted.

Here you can see a bunch of translations together, you can see how they all say "death", singular, except for one, and that is the Orthodox Jewish Bible, and there they say the following:

http://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Isaiah%2053:9

Yeshayah 53:9 (OJB) | In Context | Whole Chapter

9 And he made his kever (grave) with the resha’im, and with the oisher (rich man; see Mt 27:57-60) bemotayv (in his deaths, intensive plural should be translated singular, death); because he had done no chamas (violence), neither was any mirmah (deceit) in his mouth. T.N. We stray as sheep; we return in Moshiach as children (zera); the Techiyas HaMoshiach (Resurrection of Moshiach) predicted in v. 10 [Dead Sea Scrolls Isaiah Scroll says Moshiach "will see the light [of life];" see also the Targum HaShivim]

So it simply is PLURAL; "deaths".

(01-20-2014, 11:37 AM)Tanachreader Wrote:
(01-20-2014, 10:09 AM)Nachshon Wrote:
(01-20-2014, 09:28 AM)Tanachreader Wrote:
(01-20-2014, 08:25 AM)Nachshon Wrote:
(01-19-2014, 01:15 PM)Tanachreader Wrote: Where in the world do you see deaths in the ancient Hebrew?

Isa 53:9 says "death" in the Hebrew even in the Qumran written 100 BCE

Isaiah 53:9 uses the Hebrew word "maveth" for death
I think you meant "moot" (Gen 2:17), or "mot" (Gen 20:7), for die, because the "vav" serves as a vowel in this word, not a consonant. I don't think there is a word "maveth".

בְּמֹתָ֑יו means "deaths", in Isa 53:9. A basic knowledge of Hebrew would prove this to you.

Most english translations mistranslate this verse, as is common in the Christian Bible.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/...aveth.html

Everybody is stupid but you!
The Hebrew shoresh, root word, is "mem vav tav", for death. The word though is pronounced as "mot" or "moot" depending on the vowel points. It is not pronounced as maveth. Just a quick glance at the tool you are using shows that in Gen 21:16, 25:11, 26:18, 27:2, 27:7, 27:10, 50:16, all of these verses has the word "death" or "died" pronounced as "mot" in Hebrew.

You're embarrasing yourself. Please stop.
You misspelled embarrassing!
Just a quick glance at the tool I wrote years ago my KJV Bible which I implemented Strong's Greek and Hebrew Lex.
Ge:21:16:
25:11, 26:18, 27:2, 27:7, 27:10, 50:16 ... death 4194
They ALL USE 4194 which is Maveth
Big Grin
SO YOUR WRONG AGAIN!

Bs'd

No TR, he is right. It doesn't say there mavet, it says there "bemotav", which means "in his deaths".

Learn Hebrew and you'll see it. Or ask somebody who knows Hebrew.
But don't try to debate Hebrew if you can't even read it.

(01-20-2014, 12:58 PM)Tanachreader Wrote: the Hebrew word "bemotaiv", deaths is what you claimed.

Bs'd

And that is exactly what is written there, and it means: "In his deathS".

(01-20-2014, 05:32 PM)ThomasDGW Wrote: Eliyahu and Nachshon, you must have a lot of time to waste. You are arguing like little children. I said that my MAIN proof is that Isaiah 53 does not fit Israel, and I get back from Eliyahu, "Aha, like I thought, you have no proof because that is no proof. It could be Muhammed." Uh, no, children, Muhammed was not born in Bethlehem. You could have figured that out before trying to drop loads on me. Then to counter my claim that Israel certainly cannot say that they have done no sin, I get from Nachshon Zephaniah 3, saying that in the future, the remnant of Israel will be without sin. That is incoherent. Then to put the icing on the cake, Nachshon brings up his stubborn insistence on reading false things into what I said, to say that I cannot claim that Israel is immortal because I claimed before that Israel was not immortal. Besides the fact that Israel changing its status in the new heavens and new earth is not the death of Israel, the important thing is that Nachshon DOES believe that Israel is immortal, contrary to the suffering servant of Isaiah 53, and instead of attempting to address that problem, he chose rather to take glee in telling me I made a boo-boo. I do not wish to waste more time on this kind of childish arguing.

Bs'd

Tom, in case you missed it, the title of this thread is: "Is there any proof from the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah?"

So what I'm trying to do here, is establishing the fact that there is not the slightest internal evidence in the Tanach that points to the Christian assumption that Isaiah 53 is speaking about the messiah.

I'm getting close to establishing that fact, and when that is an undisputed fact, I want to move on and go into other aspects of Isaiah 53, among them the points that you raised. But for now I want to keep the discussion clear, and therefore I do one thing at a time, and that is now establishing that there is not the slightes proof from Isaiah 53 or the rest of the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.

If you have something to say about that, please do so now.

(01-20-2014, 06:10 PM)IamBenny Wrote:
(01-20-2014, 05:04 AM)Eliyahu Wrote:
(01-20-2014, 02:30 AM)IamBenny Wrote: Joh 5:39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
Joh 5:40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Bs'd

I come to the one and only true God Y-H-W-H in order to have life.
Yes the Scripture testify of Yeshua..

Bs'd

Not the Tanach.

That only testifies of the one and only true God Y-H-W-H.

HalleluJah!!




In the service of Y-H-W-H,


Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)