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What is the proof from the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about Israel?
#21
(01-25-2014, 07:32 PM)IamBenny Wrote: If Israel died. How can you be here?

Bs'd

God resurrected Israel.

Fact of the matter is and remains:

Isaiah 53 is about Israel being punished for the sins of Israel.

No messiah to be found there.

NOBODY can give me any proof from the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.

That's because it just doesn't exist.


The proof that the servant is Israel is abundant.


So what the Christians and the NT are doing, is ripping Tanach texts which have no bearing on the messiah whatsoever, out of context, and presenting them as "messianic prophecies".


And of course, when you randomly take Tanach texts which have no bearing on the messiah, and rip them out of context, and then mistranslate them, and then say they are messianic prophecies, then you can make everybody you want the messiah, whether it is Napoleon Bonaparte, Barak Obama, David Koresh, or the rooster of Moshe:

A Chassidic Rabbi Makes a Startling Discovery


My name is Moshe and I am a Chassidic Jew who has, from my youth, learned the words of our Holy Prophets, and has been puzzled by their meaning.
Then, on the day before Yom Kippur, I contemplated the solemnity of the day and was made aware of the amazing meaning of G-d's words. I recognized the fulfillment of 42 Messianic prophecies of the Tenach, and they changed my life forever.


1. Early in the morning I went to get my rooster to fulfill the ancient custom. There in the light I looked into his eyes and saw fulfilled the words, 'I am the rooster* who has seen affliction.' (Lam. 3:1)

2. I took him and swung him around my head as the verse says, 'And he circled his head**.' (Lam 3:5)

3. I moved my hands as I swirled him, as it says, 'Only against me did he turn his hand.' (Lam 3:3)

4. With this he leaped from my hand and started to run. As it says, 'They have run away without seeing good.' (Job 9:25)

5. I cried a short pray to HaShem as it says, 'My words I say out of the bitterness of my soul.' (Job 10:1)

6. He ran from me, fulfilling the verse, 'To me they showed their back and not their face.' (Jer. 32:33)

7/8. I borrowed a cane from a man near me so as to catch him with the rounded edge, as the verse says, 'And Moshe took the stick.' (Ex. 4:20, Num 20:8)

9/10. I tried to catch him with the hook, but only the blows of the cane hit his back as it says, 'Afflicted by the rod of his anger.' (Lam. 3:1 and it also says, 'I struck you with the blows of an enemy.' (Jer. 30:12)

11. He turned to me and I got him right on the cheek fulfilling the verse, 'I have offered my cheek to the one who strikes me.' (Lam. 3:30)

12. He ran from me into a dark corner and I followed after him, as the verse says, 'He has led me and driven me into the darkness and not light.'
(Lam. 3:2)

13. I had him there in the corner as it says; 'All her pursuers overtook her in the small place.' (Lam. 1:3)

14. He stood there silent, as he had been to this time in fulfillment of the words of the prophet, 'He was persecuted and afflicted, be he did not open his mouth.' (Is. 53:7)

15. In that corner there was just nowhere for him to hide from me as the verse says, 'Can a person hide in a concealed place, and I should not see him?' (Jer. 23:25)

16. He was now trapped as the verse says, 'He has walled me in so I cannot escape.' (Lam. 3:7)

17. In his eyes I could see him praying silently to HaShem, 'My G-d my G-d why have you forsaken me?' (Psalm 22:1)

18. Clearly it was fulfilled for him, 'The mighty ones of Bashan encircle me.' (Psalm 22:13)

19. I grabbed him and he started to call out to HaShem.
As the verse says, 'My G-d, I call to you by day and you do not answer and by night and there is no respite.' (Psalm 22:3)

20. But there was no answer as it says, 'Though I would scream out and plead he shut out my prayer.' (Lam. 3:8)

21. It was clearly the end. I grabbed him and took my place in the line waiting to give my rooster to the shochet (ritual slaughterer.) He was silent, 'Like a sheep being led to the slaughter or a ewe to her sharers he did not open his mouth.' (Is. 53:7)

22. The shochet took him by the neck as it says; 'He grasped me by the neck.' (Job 16:12)

23. With that he screamed out, 'Be not far from me because distress is near and there is none to help me.' (Psalm 22:12)

24. He also said, 'Save my soul from the sword.' (Psalm 22:21)

25. He slaughtered him fulfilling 'He was removed from the living land.' (Is. 53:8)

26. He let the blood fall on the floor, as it says, 'I am poured out like water.' (Psalm 22:15)

27. I took the dead chicken and gazed at it as the prophet says, 'They have looked upon me whom they have pierced.' (Zech 12:10)

28/29. I took it to be made kosher. We separated it into pieces snapping it's bones as the verses say, 'All my bones became disjointed.' (Psalm 22:15) 'He has broken my bones.' (Lam 3:4)

30. Then I took him home to cook. My wife removed the skin as it says, 'He has worn away my flesh and skin.' (Lam. 3:4)

31. She placed him in a pot with water, as it says, 'For the waters have reached unto my soul.' (Psalm 69:2)

32. She added many spices as it says, 'And she gave ...many spices.' (1 Kings 10:10)

33. She covered up the pot so it could cook as it says; 'He has placed me in darkness.' (Lam 3:6)

34. The smell of it filled the room as it says, 'That the spices may flow out.' (Song 4:16)

35. After that it was served on the table and we gazed upon it as the verse says, 'I count my bones and they gaze and look upon me.' (Psalm 22:18)

36. He was divided among the members of my family, as it says, 'Therefore I will divide him among the many.' (Is. 53:12)

37/38. We rejoiced and sang as we ate him, as it says, 'I have become a thing of laughter for my people, they sing all day long.' (Lam. 3:14) 'In him our hearts were joyful.' (Psalm 33:21)

39/40/41. After which we were full and praised G-d as it says, 'You shall eat and be satisfied and praise HaShem your G-d.' (Deut. 6:11,8:10,11:15).

42. We truly saw the goodness of G-d as it say, 'You should taste and see that HaShem is good.' (Psalm 34:9)

There were many more messianic prophecies that I could have added that applied to my messianic rooster. Many more he will fulfill when he comes back.

In all seriousness the above example is no different then the lists claiming 200/300/400 prophecies fulfilled by Jesus. They claim the odds against a single person fulfilling them are astronomical. Or of their claims that passages like Psalms 22, or Isaiah 53 are about their messiah/god. Consider this well when you see or hear the claims made by missionaries or just simple Christians who you may meet. If not there may be a prophecy that does really apply: 'They are a people bereft of council and they don't have understanding.'

* In Hebrew the word 'gever' means both 'man' and 'rooster'berew
** In Hebrew the word is resh aleph shin, which can be read as 'rosh' head'


© Moshe Shulman, 2000
#22
Isa_53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Who are the TRANSGRESSER?
#23
(01-25-2014, 10:01 PM)IamBenny Wrote: Isa_53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Who are the TRANSGRESSER?

Bs'd

Israel.
#24
How big was the Grave, for all of Israel?
#25
(01-26-2014, 12:02 AM)IamBenny Wrote: How big was the Grave, for all of Israel?

Bs'd

Big enough.

The grave was the land of Babylon.
#26
(01-26-2014, 06:18 AM)Eliyahu Wrote:
(01-26-2014, 12:02 AM)IamBenny Wrote: How big was the Grave, for all of Israel?

Bs'd

Big enough.

The grave was the land of Babylon.
I do understand how you would think Israel is the suffering servant of Isaiah ,because in part Israel is, but Iniquity does not atone for iniquity; Isaiah said ;"All we" in Isaiah 53:6 have gone their own way, and the Lord has laid the iniquity of us ""all"" on Him. Isaiah speaks of Israel, not Israel suffers for the nations. The suffering servant is singular . If Israel goes each their own way , that is not singular, but plural.

Only YHVH may bring atonement for Israel through the blood of His Own sacrifice ; The lamb of G-D. Genesis 22:8 Do you not believe the death of the one righteous atones for the many?

Just as Isaac carried his own wood to the place he would be sacrificed, so did Yeshua carry the wood of his cross to that very same place. Why would YHVH ask Abraham to do this, if not for what He planned from the beginning ; to seal the Covenant between Himself and Abraham, and the seed of Isaac. Covenants are sealed in blood,[Exodus 24:8] and the Lamb was not given then by YHVH to replace the sacrifice of Isaac. If human sacrifice is abhorrent to YHVH, why then would YHVH ask Abraham to sacrifice His son? Think my friend! Isaiah 1:18.

The veil has not yet fully lifted on Israel's eye's, and His Breath, and Spirit not yet not fully filled Israel's flesh, else Israel would obey YHVH. Deuteronomy 28:52

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/N...uO8LsEo7WP

It sorrows me to say the suffering of Jacob is soon upon Israel[Daniel 12:1], and by Israel's suffering shall they accept Messiahs victory over death that which happened long ago; will you one day know your G-D, and His Words, and understand His Promise.!

YHVH first came to prepare the hearts of His children, and to allow them ability to choose what is righteous in His sight, for Love does not exist without choice. It is why He tarries; Matthew 23:39. Matthew 24:2,6-8 Deuteronomy 18:22
Yeshua lives!
Shalom
#27
(01-26-2014, 08:01 AM)Azriel Wrote: I do understand how you would think Israel is the suffering servant of Isaiah ,because in part Israel is, but Iniquity does not atone for iniquity;

Bs'd

Iniquity doesn't atone for iniquity, but getting righteous punishment does atone for iniquity.

Quote: Isaiah said ;"All we" in Isaiah 53:6 have gone their own way, and the Lord has laid the iniquity of us ""all"" on Him. Isaiah speaks of Israel, not Israel suffers for the nations. The suffering servant is singular . If Israel goes each their own way , that is not singular, but plural.

Of course Israel does not suffer for the nations. Israel suffers for the sin of Israel.

"the Lord has laid the iniquity of us ""all"" on Him."

The "us all" is Israel. "him" is the servant. The servant is Israel.

So the sins of Israel came down upon the heads of Israel.

That's how it works.

Quote:Only YHVH may bring atonement for Israel through the blood of His Own sacrifice ; The lamb of G-D. Genesis 22:8 Do you not believe the death of the one righteous atones for the many?

No.

Don't you believe that it is a crazy concept that God first has to let Himself be tortured and murdered by His creatures before He can forgive them??
#28
(01-26-2014, 11:18 AM)Eliyahu Wrote:
(01-26-2014, 08:01 AM)Azriel Wrote: I do understand how you would think Israel is the suffering servant of Isaiah ,because in part Israel is, but Iniquity does not atone for iniquity;

Bs'd

Iniquity doesn't atone for iniquity, but getting righteous punishment does atone for iniquity.

Quote: Isaiah said ;"All we" in Isaiah 53:6 have gone their own way, and the Lord has laid the iniquity of us ""all"" on Him. Isaiah speaks of Israel, not Israel suffers for the nations. The suffering servant is singular . If Israel goes each their own way , that is not singular, but plural.

Of course Israel does not suffer for the nations. Israel suffers for the sin of Israel.

"the Lord has laid the iniquity of us ""all"" on Him."

The "us all" is Israel. "him" is the servant. The servant is Israel.

So the sins of Israel came down upon the heads of Israel.

That's how it works.

Quote:Only YHVH may bring atonement for Israel through the blood of His Own sacrifice ; The lamb of G-D. Genesis 22:8 Do you not believe the death of the one righteous atones for the many?

No.

Don't you believe that it is a crazy concept that God first has to let Himself be tortured and murdered by His creatures before He can forgive them??

Not CRAZY God is LOVE...
#29
(01-26-2014, 06:33 PM)IamBenny Wrote:
Quote:Don't you believe that it is a crazy concept that God first has to let Himself be tortured and murdered by His creatures before He can forgive them??

Not CRAZY God is LOVE...

Bs'd

Even when God is love, why would it be necessary for Him to let Himself be tortured and killed by His creatures before He can forgive those creatures??

And there is such a thing as "tough love". It is all over the Tanach. If somebody sins, then God punishes. Check Lev 26 and Deut 28 for that concept.

God does not punish Himself for the sins of His creatures. God punishes His creatures for their sins.

That is what Isaiah is all about: Israel being punished for the sins of Israel.

The proof for Israel being the servant is abundant.

The proof for the messiah being the servant is non-existant in the Tanach.

For anybody who has a little intellectual integrity that settles the debate.
#30
Exo_6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.


Isaiah 53 Is Messiah, and you can not change that...


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