Bible Options Bible Study Software
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
What is the proof from the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about Israel?
#1
Bs'd

I think the fact is now clearly established that there is not the slightest proof in the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.

So now: What is the proof from the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about Israel?

First of all of course, we have the fact that MANY times in Isaiah Israel is called "the servant of God. Some examples:

Isaiah 41:8: “But thou , Israel art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. Thou who I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thou from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee: Thou art my servant, I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.”



Isaiah 44:1-2; “Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant, and Israel who I have chosen. Thus said the Lord that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; fear not O Jacob my servant, and thou Jesurun whom I have chosen.”


Isaiah 44:21; “Remember these, O Jacob and Israel, for thou art my servant. I have formed thee, thou art my servant; OIsrael thou shalt not be forgotten of me


Isaiah 45:4; “For Jacob, my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name.”



Isaiah 48:20; “The lord hath redeemed his servant Jacob.”


Isaiah 49:3; “And said unto me: Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”

There is more where this came from, but in the above texts you can catch it in one sentence.

This is quite a contrast to the messiah, who is NOWHERE in Isaiah, and NOWHERE IN THE WHOLE TANACH ever referred to as "the servant of God".

.
.
.



And then there is the context of Isaiah 53. The context speaks about ISRAEL. The messiah is nowhere to found in the context of Isaiah 53:

Isaiah 52:4; "For thus says Y-H-W-H God, “My people went down at the first into Egypt to reside there"

Isaiah 52:6; "Therefore My people shall know My name; therefore in that day I am the one who is speaking"

Isaiah 52:9 "For the Lord has comforted His people"

Read all of chapter 52, and see that it speaks about ISRAEL, returning from the exile.

The context is ISRAEL.

.
.
.
.


And then there is the conceptual proof; what do we get when we say that the servant is JC?

Then we get the concept that before God could forgive mankind, He first had to let His creatures commit an even bigger sin, killing their Creator, before He could forgive them.

That concept, that God, or His son who is also God, had to suffer and die in order to get forgiveness for men, is apart from very weird and illogical, also NOWHERE to be found in the Hebrew Bible.

Just doesn't exist.

And when we say the serant is Israel, then what do we get?

When we fill in the Jewish people in this text,: "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities, the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and with his stripes we are healed." we also have to ask: who is the 'our' and the 'we'? Here is the prophet Isaiah speaking as a part of the Jewish people. So also the 'we' points to the Jewish people. Now in stead of the metaphor, 'the servant', let's fill in the Jewish people and see what we get: But [the Jewish people] were wounded for the transgressions of [the Jewish people], [the Jewish people] were bruised for the iniquities of [the Jewish people], the chastisement of the peace of [the Jewish people] was upon [the Jewish people], and with the stripes of [the Jewish people] [the Jewish people] are healed.

Here we see that the Jewish people were punished for the sins of the Jewish people. And that is a concept that we see time and again in the Tanach. It is all over the Tanach.

The Jews sin, the Jews get punished. Nothing new.

And through the punishment the sins are erased. Through their own suffering, the Jews get healing (forgiveness) from their sins.

A very logical an very Biblical concept.


So we see that the proof for Israel being the servant is plentifull.

And we have already seen, that the proof for the servant being the messiah, is non-existant.


So the problem is solved.

Amen and HalleluJah!!

.
.
.
#2
The servant suffers UNTO DEATH, whereas the nation is to continue. According to 53:8,12, the servant is cut off out of the land of the living, but, according to Jer. 30:11, Israel continues as a nation: "For I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have scattered thee, but I will not make a full end of thee; but I will correct thee in measure, and will in no wise leave thee unpunished." Therefore, since the servant goes to death, but the nation survives the catastrophe which blots out all other nations, Israel cannot be the servant of this passage.
David L Cooper, Th.M., Ph.D., Litt.D
#3
(01-22-2014, 09:44 AM)Tanachreader Wrote: The servant suffers UNTO DEATH, whereas the nation is to continue. According to 53:8,12, the servant is cut off out of the land of the living,

Bs'd

The land of the living is the land of Israel. When Israel went into exile, Israel was cut off from the land of the living. As a nation, Israel was dead.

Quote: but, according to Jer. 30:11, Israel continues as a nation: "For I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have scattered thee, but I will not make a full end of thee; but I will correct thee in measure, and will in no wise leave thee unpunished." Therefore, since the servant goes to death, but the nation survives the catastrophe which blots out all other nations, Israel cannot be the servant of this passage.
David L Cooper, Th.M., Ph.D., Litt.D

The return to Israel is the resurrection of the nation of Israel.

Bs’d



“Behold, my servant shall act wisely;” You believe this is JC. You believe JC is god. So God is his own servant?



“his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the children of mankind”

When did that happen to JC?



“a man of sorrows, and acquainted with sickness” When exactly was JC sick?



“Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.”

Wasn’t JC a very popular preacher who entered Jerusalem amongst a big crowd of followers?



A mistranslation: “Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.”

The word “yet” seems to imply that the considerations of the Jewish people that he was stricken by God, was wrong.

However, that word “yet” is nowhere to be found in the Hebrew. It is inserted by translators who want to prove their point.



“But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities;”

The same holds true for the word “But”, which also seems to imply that the Jews were wrong. In both places in the Hebrew only the word “and” is written, so the correct translation is as follows: “Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, and we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. And he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;”

“He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth;”

He didn’t open his mouth? When Jesus said this, one of the officials nearby struck him in the face. "Is this the way you answer the high priest?" he demanded. "If I said something wrong," Jesus replied, "testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?" John 18:22

When he was hanging at the cross he accused God, that is himself; he cried out: “Why did I forsake myself?”

“At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?" Mark 15:34

He didn’t open his mouth?



“for the transgression of my people the plague was upon them”

This is a very clear proof it speaks about the Jewish people being punished for their own sins. “The plague was upon THEM”. Plural. So this is not about a singular person, so this is not about the messiah.

The Hebrew word translated as “upon them” is “lamo” The same word “lamo” is also used in Genesis 9:26-27: “God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be THEIR servant."

Deut 32:32; “and THEIR clusters are bitter.” Literally: “For them are bitter clusters.”

Deut 32: 35 “and their destiny will overtake THEM”

Deut 33:2; “"The LORD came from Sinai and dawned OVER THEM from Seir;”



The word “lamo” which means “for them” or “upon them” is also used in Isaiah 16:4, 26:14+16, 35:8, Psalm 119:165.

Some translations, realizing they cannot get around the plural, translate it as: “for the transgression of my people, TO WHOM the stroke was due?” Like this it is translated by the NASB, AMP, ASV, and in the footnote of the NIV.

But this is a very forced translation. There is nothing “due” in verse 8.

“He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence”

Done no violence? “So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.” John 2:15



“And with the rich in his death” The Hebrew word for “death” is written in the plural, again indicating it does not speak about a singular person. Unless of course Christianity wants to say that their god died several times. If you say this talks about a whole people, then there is no problem.

But, if you want to say this speaks about the messiah, then you are in trouble.



And of course, this word is mistranslated in about every Christian translation to be found.



“Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief;” So it was the will of God to crush Himself???



“when he makes his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days” God makes himself an offering for sin? JC sees his offspring? How is he going to do that? He was never married.



“He shall prolong his days”

God is going to prolong his days when he makes himself an offering for sin? And if he doesn’t, God is not going to prolong his days?

But didn’t God die when he was 30?



“when he makes his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring”

God needs to make himself an offering in order to be able to forgive his creatures? God first has to be murdered by his creatures, and only then he can forgive them?



“Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong” God is going to give Himself a portion with the strong? When exactly did JC get that?
#4
Eliyahu wrote
The land of the living is the land of Israel. When Israel went into exile, Israel was cut off from the land of the living. As a nation, Israel was dead.

Isa:53:8
-so you believe the nation Israel was taken from prison than removed from the land of Israel for the sins Israel stricken

What does this mean
Isa:53:9: And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
and
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin
and
by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Are you claiming those people were a sin offering for you accepted by God?
Confused
#5
(01-22-2014, 11:50 AM)Tanachreader Wrote: Eliyahu wrote
The land of the living is the land of Israel. When Israel went into exile, Israel was cut off from the land of the living. As a nation, Israel was dead.

Isa:53:8
-so you believe the nation Israel was taken from prison than removed from the land of Israel for the sins Israel stricken

What does this mean
Isa:53:9: And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
and
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin
and
by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Are you claiming those people were a sin offering for you accepted by God?
Confused

Bs'd

First answer my question in my post above, then you can start asking questions.
#6
(01-22-2014, 09:44 AM)Tanachreader Wrote: The servant suffers UNTO DEATH, whereas the nation is to continue. According to 53:8,12, the servant is cut off out of the land of the living, but, according to Jer. 30:11, Israel continues as a nation: "For I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have scattered thee, but I will not make a full end of thee; but I will correct thee in measure, and will in no wise leave thee unpunished." Therefore, since the servant goes to death, but the nation survives the catastrophe which blots out all other nations, Israel cannot be the servant of this passage.
David L Cooper, Th.M., Ph.D., Litt.D
That's a very good interpretation, though it makes me sorrowful for Israel.

Isaiah 53:6 ; All we like sheep have gone astray; everyone one of us has turned to his own way, and the Lord has laid the iniquity of all of us; everyone on the suffering servant.

Iniquity doesn't atone for iniquity, and all Israel means all Israel , save One that is Yeshua!
Great posts T.R.

(01-22-2014, 10:11 PM)Eliyahu Wrote:
(01-22-2014, 11:50 AM)Tanachreader Wrote: Eliyahu wrote
The land of the living is the land of Israel. When Israel went into exile, Israel was cut off from the land of the living. As a nation, Israel was dead.

Isa:53:8
-so you believe the nation Israel was taken from prison than removed from the land of Israel for the sins Israel stricken

What does this mean
Isa:53:9: And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
and
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin
and
by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Are you claiming those people were a sin offering for you accepted by God?
Confused

Bs'd

First answer my question in my post above, then you can start asking questions.
Then perhaps Eliyahu could answer this question for me, seeing he didn't address me, or I him to answer Tanachreaders question above. I have stated this question many times with no rebuttal, just curious how you see the suffering servant when all Israel ;everyone has gone astray? In saying all; Isaiah included himself and His sons, that all have gone astray. The Author is not addressing the gentile nations, but Israel.

Only YHVH is Righteous and only He; Immanuel can bring a sacrifice of Atonement through the blood of the Lamb; His Son Yeshua[Genesis 22:8] Just as Isaac carried the wood for his sacrifice, did Yeshua walk the same steps in the very same place as Isaac, carrying the wood of His cross for all Israel, and all those who would receive the offering of YHVH. Think man!

There are hundred of prophesies without any way possible way human manipulation could have been the factor in these prophesies Yeshua fuflilled. There are more to be fulfilled as the prophets spoke, but the Covenant is set, waiting on the free will of Israel to accept. By prophesy we know Israel's answer, save a remnant who believe.

The Hebrew Bible is the story of Yeshua who walked upon the earth, and gave His innocence for you; His Righteous death of atonement , given Righteousness by YHVH through Him, would save not just Israel, but those in the world who would believe in His Name.

Matthew 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.
Yeshua prophesied the Temples destruction. Perhaps you should ask yourself why did YHVH allow the Temples destruction if His righteousness was in the Temple. Surely it wasn't destroyed from Israel believing in Yeshua's Words.

39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’

Isaiah 59:59 Behold, the Lord’s hand is not shortened,
That it cannot save;
Nor His ear heavy,
That it cannot hear.
2 But your iniquities have separated you from your G-D;
And your sins have hidden His face from you,
So that He will not hear.

20 “The Redeemer will come to Zion,
And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,”
Says the Lord.

21 “As for Me,” says the Lord, “this is My covenant with them: My Spirit who is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your descendants, nor from the mouth of your descendants’ descendants,” says the Lord, “from this time and forevermore.”


Yeshua lives

How could you not believe?
#7
(01-23-2014, 08:09 AM)Azriel Wrote: just curious how you see the suffering servant when all Israel ;everyone has gone astray? In saying all; Isaiah included himself and His sons, that all have gone astray. The Author is not addressing the gentile nations, but Israel.

Bs'd

The whole chapter, a lot of Isaiah, is a metaphor. That means, you don't take every word literally.

Here is another prophet, Eliyahu, who says he is the only one left, yet there were thousands left:

“I have been very zealous for the Lord God Almighty. The Israelites have rejected your covenant, torn down your altars, and put your prophets to death with the sword. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me too.”

15 The Lord said to him, “Go back the way you came, and go to the Desert of Damascus. When you get there, anoint Hazael king over Aram. 16 Also, anoint Jehu son of Nimshi king over Israel, and anoint Elisha son of Shaphat from Abel Meholah to succeed you as prophet. 17 Jehu will put to death any who escape the sword of Hazael, and Elisha will put to death any who escape the sword of Jehu. 18 Yet I reserve seven thousand in Israel—all whose knees have not bowed down to Baal and whose mouths have not kissed him.”
1 Kings 19

Quote:"]Isaiah 53:6 ; All we like sheep have gone astray; everyone one of us has turned to his own way, and the Lord has laid the iniquity of all of us; everyone on the suffering servant.

Iniquity doesn't atone for iniquity,

No, it does not. But a righteous punishment does atone for iniquity.

Quote: Isa:53:8
-so you believe the nation Israel was taken from prison than removed from the land of Israel for the sins Israel stricken

"For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished."

This is the NIV translation, in the Hebrew it says "for the transgression of my people THEY were punished."

So it says that Israel was led in to exile, driven out of Israel = the land of the living, and they were punished for the sins of Israel.

Quote: What does this mean
Isa:53:9: And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

The grave with wicked and rich points to Babylonia, who was at that time the superpower, an evil and rich empire, to where the nation was exiled in their death, their exile from the land of the living.

Quote:and when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin

When you accept that the punishment is from God, and you take it to heart and return to God and his law, then everything will be OK again.

Quote:and by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

The Jews have, as the only people, knowledge of God and His law, knowledge not in the possesion of any other nation. Through that knowledge, many will make themselves righteous, by fearing God and keeping His commandments.

Quote:Are you claiming those people were a sin offering for you accepted by God?

No, they were sinofferings for themselves, accepted by God.

Everybody dies for his own sins, Not for those of the neighbour.

Quote:Only YHVH is Righteous

Just one example, there are more: 1 Kings 3:6
"Solomon answered, “You have shown great kindness to your servant, my father David, because he was faithful to you and righteous and upright in heart."

Quote: and only He; Immanuel can bring a sacrifice of Atonement through the blood of the Lamb;

The concept that God has to let Himself be murdered by His creatures before He can forgive him is apart from being totally ridiculous, nowhere to be found in the Tanach.

Quote:There are hundred of prophesies without any way possible way human manipulation could have been the factor in these prophesies Yeshua fuflilled.

The real messianic prophecies are not fulfilled by JC.

There are no "hundreds of messianic prophecies", just doesn't exist.

What does exist though, is hundreds of Tanach texts which have no bearing on the messiah whatsoever, ripped out of context, and presented by the Christians as "messianic prophecies fulfilled by JC".

Examples are Isaiah 7 and 53.

Bs'd I'll give a lot more examples.

Quote:here are more to be fulfilled as the prophets spoke, but the Covenant is set, waiting on the free will of Israel to accept. By prophesy we know Israel's answer, save a remnant who believe.

The Hebrew Bible is the story of Yeshua who walked upon the earth,

JC is even as many times found in the Tanach as Mohammed: Zero.

Israel as the servant of God.

"Behold, my servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high."

>> As the prophets announce, Israel will be exalted, see Isaiah 60, 61, and 62.

"As many were astonished at him -- his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the sons of men "

>> The servant Israel was no longer a nation when they were several times dispersed over the whole earth.  People were astonished about what happened to the Jews; persecutions, crusaders who wiped out complete Jewish communities before they took off to the holy land, including women and children.  There was the Christian inquisition, who had the horrible habit of torturing Jews to death, there was the holocaust in which Christian Europe murdered six million civilians, amongst them 1,500,000 children, there was plenty of reason to be upset about what befell the Jews.

"so shall he startle many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him; for that which has not been told them they shall see, and that which they have not heard they shall understand."

>> The world will be very surprised when the Jews, after almost 2000 years of exile, will come back to the holy land, and against all odds, will become very prominent amongst the nations. 

"Who has believed what we have heard? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?  For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground;

>> With 70 souls Jacob moved to Egypt, and there, in the arid ground, despite all the hardships imposed upon the Jews, Israel became a great people.


"he had no form or comeliness that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him."

>> But it was a slave people, in a horrible way suppressed by the Egyptians, who also committed genocide on the Jewish boys.

"He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not."

>> In Egypt, but also during the other exiles, Israel was acquainted with disasters: deportations, torture, killings. Under those conditions nobody was very happy to be a Jew. The people of Israel was despised, even by the Jews themselves who had to endure all these disasters. In those circumstances, being a Jew was not something to be happy about.

"Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted."

>> Because Israel strayed away from Gods ways, it incurred the punishment connected to those sins, just like we see throughout the whole history of Israel. They correctly assumed that Israel was smitten and afflicted by God.

"He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed."

>> Israel was severely punished for the sins of Israel, and through the punishment acquired the cure, the total remission of sins.

"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all."


>> Israel strayed away from the law of God, and God brought the punishment for those sins upon Israel.


"He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth."

Psalm 44: "But for Your sake we are killed all day long; We are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."
A good example of that is the holocaust, in which the Jews went like sheep to the slaughter.


"By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living,"

>> When Israel was overrun by their enemies and led into exile, it was dead as a nation. The land of Israel didn't exist anymore.

"stricken for the transgression of my people".

>> Israel stricken for the sins of Israel.

"And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth."


>> Israel was conquered by and led in exile to the nations who were then economically and military on top of the world: "With a rich man in his death".
The reason for the punishment was idolatry, and not violence or deceit.


"Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief;"

>> God punished Israel.

"when you make him an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand;"

>> When Israel repents, and accepts the punishment from God, Israel will live again, and God's plan with Israel shall proceed.

"he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied;"

>> Because Israel has been punished for it's sins, "it's travail", their sins are abolished, and God's plan for Israel will play itself out, and Israel shall see it "until satisfaction".

"by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities."

>> Israel shall through it's knowledge of God and his laws, knowledge not revealed to any other nation, turn many Israelites to a righteous path: "Fear God and observe his commandments". But when Israel strays, it will receive the punishment from God.

"Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

Israel will be lifted up, because it repented from it's sins, and was severely punished for it's sins. It was (correctly) numbered with the transgressors, it bore the sins of many, and the righteous amongst them prayed for the sinners.
#8
Eliyahu wrote
No, they were sinofferings for themselves, accepted by God.
Everybody dies for his own sins, Not for those of the neighbour.

Then your offering is crap you are sinner's like everone else not spotless
#9
(01-24-2014, 07:29 AM)Tanachreader Wrote: Then your offering is crap you are sinner's like everone else not spotless
Wow, such language for a man of god. Is this how you play when you can't answer a question directly?

Should we contact the Admin to control you?
#10
(01-24-2014, 12:51 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(01-24-2014, 07:29 AM)Tanachreader Wrote: Then your offering is crap you are sinner's like everone else not spotless
Wow, such language for a man of god. Is this how you play when you can't answer a question directly?

Should we contact the Admin to control you?

Sorry I should have said pooh pooh


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)