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About who does Isaiah 42 speak?
#1
Bs'd

We see that in Isaiah 41:8-9, that is only twenty verses before the beginning of chapter 42 about which the NT claimes that the servant is the messiah, that there the servant is clearly and undisputed ISRAEL: "But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you: You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off"

We also see that in Isaiah 42:18-25, only fourteen verses after the beginning of chapter 42 about which the NT claimes that the servant is the messiah, that there the servant is clearly and undisputed ISRAEL.

So we see that the Christian claim is based upon nothing, and goes against the context and against the plain text of Isaiah.

And of course, just like in Isaiah 53, Christianity has not the slightest proof to back up their claim that the servant in Isaiah 42 is the messiah.

The proof that it is Israel is indisputable.
#2
Big Grin
Isaiah 42. Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. And in his name shall the Gentiles trust."

M't:3:17: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
M't:12:18: Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
M't:17:5: While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
M'r:1:11: And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Lu:3:22: And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

I must also point out that the Gentiles TRUST HIM!
#3
(01-24-2014, 11:18 AM)Tanachreader Wrote: Big Grin
Isaiah 42. Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. And in his name shall the Gentiles trust."

Bs'd

You have to be struck with blindness not to see that the servant in Isaiah 42 is Israel.

Isaiah says it loud and clear in the same chapter!

How blind do you have to be not to see it?? Huh
#4
Bs'd

The prophet Isaiah says that Isaiah 42 speaks about ISRAEL.

The Christians say that Isaiah 42 speaks about the messiah.

So the Christians ignore the plain text of Isaiah, and shove in their own fabrications.
#5
"According to the NT Jesus was not blind and deaf. Conclusion: JC is not the servant. Conclusion: The NT is based upon false premises."

Therefore, you must conclude that the servant is Israel. Therefore, you must conclude that Israel is blind and deaf. And how do you know that the servant in verse 19 is the same as the servant in verse 1?
#6
(01-27-2014, 10:48 AM)ThomasDGW Wrote: "According to the NT Jesus was not blind and deaf. Conclusion: JC is not the servant. Conclusion: The NT is based upon false premises."

Therefore, you must conclude that the servant is Israel. Therefore, you must conclude that Israel is blind and deaf. And how do you know that the servant in verse 19 is the same as the servant in verse 1?

Bs'd

Why should Isaiah in Isaiah 41 say: "But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you: You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off"

And then say again in the end of chapter 42 loud and clear that the servant is Israel, when the servant in the beginning of Isaiah 42 is not the servant?

I know the servant is Israel, because Isaiah says so.

He is constantly speaking about the same theme, Israel as the servant.

There is not the slightest indication, let alone any proof, that the servant in the beginning of isaiah 42 is the messiah, while right before and right after the messiah is Israel.

It simply is the same theme that we see all over the NT, see here: http://forums.jewsforjesus.org/thread-9871.html that the NT rips Tanach texts which do not speak about the messiah at all out of context, and presents them as "messianic prophecies fulfilled by JC", something which they are obviously not.

Case in point is Isaiah 42. It is literally spelled out in that chapter who is the servant: Israel.

Right before Isaiah 42, in chapter 41, it is again clearly said that the servant is Israel.

Come the Christians and say: "The servant in Isaiah 42 is the messiah".

How blinded do you have to be to believe in that?
#7
(01-27-2014, 10:48 AM)ThomasDGW Wrote: "According to the NT Jesus was not blind and deaf. Conclusion: JC is not the servant. Conclusion: The NT is based upon false premises."

Therefore, you must conclude that the servant is Israel. Therefore, you must conclude that Israel is blind and deaf.

Bs'd

I conclude that Isrel was blind and deaf in the days of Isaiah. That's why they went into exile.

Quote: And how do you know that the servant in verse 19 is the same as the servant in verse 1?

Wrong question. The question must be: How can the servant in verse 1 be another than the servant right before and right after?
#8
Isa_42:1-8
ANNOUNCEMENT OF THE SERVANT OF THE LORD, AND THE WORK WHICH HE WILL PERFORM. There are comparatively few who deny that, in this place at any rate, the "Servant of the Lord" is the Messiah. (So the Targum on the passage; so Abar-barnel; so, among moderns, Oehler, Delitzsch, and Mr. Cheyne.) The portraiture has "so strong an individuality and such marked personal features, that it cannot possibly be a mere personified collective;" and it goes so "infinitely beyond anything of which a man was ever capable that it can only be the future Christ" (Delitzsch). It may be added that St. Matthew (Mat_12:17-21) distinctly applies the passage to our Lord.
...
Isa_42:6
I the Lord have called thee in righteousness. The "Servant of Jehovah" is addressed. God has "called" him; i.e. appointed him to his mediatorial office "in righteousness," in accordance with the righteous purpose which he has entertained towards his fallen creatures from the beginning of the world. And will give thee for a Covenant of the people (comp. Isa_49:8). The covenant between God and his people being in Christ, it is quite consistent with Hebrew usage to transfer the term to Christ himself, in whom the covenant was, as it were, embodied. So Christ is called "our Salvation" and "our Peace," and again, "our Redemption" and "our Life." This is the ordinary tone of Hebrew poetry, which rejoices in personification and embodiment. A prose writer would have said that the Servant of the Lord would be given as the Mediator of a covenant between Jehovah and his people. For a light of the Gentiles (comp. Isa_49:6; Isa_51:4).
Pulpit
#9
Bs'd

The strongest proof for the servant being the people of Israel is Isaiah 42. This is also claimed by the NT as a messianic prophecy, see Matthew 12:16-21; "And charged them that they should not make him known: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. And in his name shall the Gentiles trust."

This is a quote from Isaiah 42, applied by the NT to JC. Now read here the whole chapter of Isaiah 42 and see that it speaks all the time about the servant of God, see who is that servant of God, and see that it does not speak about the messiah:

"Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof. Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains. Let them give glory unto the LORD, and declare his praise in the islands. The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies. I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself: now will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once. I will make waste mountains and hills, and dry up all their herbs; and I will make the rivers islands, and I will dry up the pools. And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them. They shall be turned back, they shall be greatly ashamed, that trust in graven images, that say to the molten images, Ye are our gods. Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see. Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD's servant? Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.


The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable. But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore. Who among you will give ear to this? who will hearken and hear for the time to come? Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not Y-H-W-H, he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law. Therefore he hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart."

As you see, saying JC was the servant doesn't fit very well: "Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see. Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as Y-H-W-H's servant? Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not."

According to the NT Jesus was not blind and deaf. Conclusion: JC is not the servant. Conclusion: The NT is based upon false premises.

It is here literally spelled out who is the servant that Isaiah talks about: "Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD's servant? Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not. The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable. But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore. Who among you will give ear to this? who will hearken and hear for the time to come? Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers?"

Where it says "But this is a people", (some translations say: But it is a people), there it says in the original Hebrew: we-hu am bazuz. That is literally translated: "And HE is a robbed nation/people." The 'he' refers to the servant in the previous verse. The following verses identify that nation as the people of Israel: "Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers?"

We see here that in Isaiah 41:8-9, that is only twenty verses before the beginning of chapter 42 about which the NT claimes that the servant is the messiah, that there the servant is clearly and undisputed ISRAEL: "But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you: You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off"

We also see that in Isaiah 42:18-25, only fourteen verses after the beginning of chapter 42 about which the NT claimes that the servant is the messiah, that there the servant is clearly and undisputed ISRAEL.

So we see that the Christian claim is based upon nothing, and goes against the context and against the plain text of Isaiah.
#10
Isa_42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isa_49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

This is Jesus Christ the covenant of Faith,,,,,Israel does not save anyone...

Joh_8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Joh_9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
Joh_12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.


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