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Got covenant?
#1
Just recently someone made a very shrew comment regarding the passover sacrifice and the requirement to be circumcised, both native Jew and stranger alike, Ex 12:48-49, to partake of this sacrifice. Those who are not circumcised cannot participate and eat of the sacrifice, and are cut-off, Gen 17:14.

Now, not only are we taught in Tanakh that there is a physical circumcision required of all Jews and strangers who join Israel, but there is also an addtional teaching that a person’s heart needs to be circumcised as well, showing that they are following in obedience to Hashem’s standard of righteousness, Psalms 119:142, Ezek 36:26-27, Jer 4:4, Jer 6:10, Jer 9:25-26, Jer 31:33, Deut 10:12-16.

Since circumcision of the heart brings a person in alignment with Hashem’s Torah, why would Christians think that they can participate of J-sus passover sacrifice (playing devil’s advocate) if they are not circumcised physically or spiritually (as evidenced by not keeping Torah), and are not a part of the covenant to begin with of Israel, Isa 56:2-8.

I welcome all rational discussions.
#2
(02-04-2014, 04:08 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Just recently someone made a very shrew comment regarding the passover sacrifice and the requirement to be circumcised, both native Jew and stranger alike, Ex 12:48-49, to partake of this sacrifice. Those who are not circumcised cannot participate and eat of the sacrifice, and are cut-off, Gen 17:14.

Now, not only are we taught in Tanakh that there is a physical circumcision required of all Jews and strangers who join Israel, but there is also an addtional teaching that a person’s heart needs to be circumcised as well, showing that they are following in obedience to Hashem’s standard of righteousness, Psalms 119:142, Ezek 36:26-27, Jer 4:4, Jer 6:10, Jer 9:25-26, Jer 31:33, Deut 10:12-16.

Since circumcision of the heart brings a person in alignment with Hashem’s Torah, why would Christians think that they can participate of J-sus passover sacrifice (playing devil’s advocate) if they are not circumcised physically or spiritually (as evidenced by not keeping Torah), and are not a part of the covenant to begin with of Israel, Isa 56:2-8.

I welcome all rational discussions.
The Purpose of the Law
16Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.
17What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by G-D, so as to nullify the promise.
18For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but YHVH has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.…
The Brit Chadashah re-affirms, that circumcision is an inward transformation rather than just an external act.

You left out as well in Jeremiah 31:33; Jeremiah 31:31,32;
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
32 "not according to the Covenant "that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. [/b]

The Covenant of Abraham takes precedence over the law of Moses , else all Israel would have ceased to exist. It is Hashem through Yeshua Meshiach who fulfilled that Covenant of Grace;.[Genesis 22:8] By Spirit and Grace, not of flesh, for the flesh of this world has no part in Heavens Kingdom. A Kingdom divided shall not stand. You cannot serve this world and serve Hashem. To see the face of YHVH ; no flesh shall live.[33:20 Exodus]


Do I believe in circumcision? Yes. Do I think by not circumcising the flesh shall destroy our salvation. Of course not!

Galations 6:8 No earthly operation can sever us from Yetser Hara. The act of circumcising the flesh was to signify the intimate connection of the lower reproductive organs with the Creator.

The Prophets and Torah confirm this act of pulling away the flesh, or foreskin was to confirm the inward act of circumcision of the heart, and spiritual change in the person; Deuteronomy 10:16, Jeremiah 4:4
Be well my friend.
#3
(02-05-2014, 08:17 AM)Azriel Wrote: The Purpose of the Law
16Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.
This is not a good argument as the context of “zera/seed” in Gen 13:15,15:5,17:7,8,22:18,26:4,28:4,13,14,35:12,48:4, is respect to all future generations of Abraham.

(02-05-2014, 08:17 AM)Azriel Wrote: 17What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by G-D, so as to nullify the promise.
No one has argued this. Each covenant since Adam has been built up from the previous one. Did the promise come before or after Abraham’s obedience to Hashem’s commands?

(02-05-2014, 08:17 AM)Azriel Wrote: 18For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but YHVH has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.…
The Brit Chadashah re-affirms, that circumcision is an inward transformation rather than just an external act.
Tanakh affirms this as well. Nothing new here.

(02-05-2014, 08:17 AM)Azriel Wrote: You left out as well in Jeremiah 31:33; Jeremiah 31:31,32;
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
32 "not according to the Covenant "that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. [/b]
The covenant hasn’t changed though has it? No. If anything, the people’s hearts will be circumcised and they will keep the Torah. The outward should be an expression of the inward. But please notice that the new/renewed covenant is still with Israel. All can join. You can’t make up your own rules and say “your grafted in”. No one becomes a US citizen by following their rules. This is common sense.

(02-05-2014, 08:17 AM)Azriel Wrote: The Covenant of Abraham takes precedence over the law of Moses , else all Israel would have ceased to exist. It is Hashem through Yeshua Meshiach who fulfilled that Covenant of Grace;.[Genesis 22:8] By Spirit and Grace, not of flesh, for the flesh of this world has no part in Heavens Kingdom. A Kingdom divided shall not stand. You cannot serve this world and serve Hashem. To see the face of YHVH ; no flesh shall live.[33:20 Exodus]
Grace is not the context of Gen 22:8. Abraham had done nothing wrong for him to sacrifice his son. This was strictly a test of obedience to Hashem. The context also shows that Hashem was not referring to a future lamb, Gen 22:13. Grace and forgiveness is already part of the Torah. So it is contradictory for you to say it takes precedence over the law of Moses since this is Torah as well.

(02-05-2014, 08:17 AM)Azriel Wrote: Do I believe in circumcision? Yes. Do I think by not circumcising the flesh shall destroy our salvation. Of course not!
I haven’t talked about salvation. That’s a separate topic. But, saying you're part of the covenant and not abiding by the covenant speaks for itself. You can’t say you partake of the “passover lamb” and not be part of the covenant and keep its requirements.

(02-05-2014, 08:17 AM)Azriel Wrote: Galations 6:8 No earthly operation can sever us from Yetser Hara. The act of circumcising the flesh was to signify the intimate connection of the lower reproductive organs with the Creator.
I don’t know what you mean by “earthly operation”, but from the beginning Hashem says that we can conquer the yetzer hara, Gen 4:7. We can conquer sin.

(02-05-2014, 08:17 AM)Azriel Wrote: The Prophets and Torah confirm this act of pulling away the flesh, or foreskin was to confirm the inward act of circumcision of the heart, and spiritual change in the person; Deuteronomy 10:16, Jeremiah 4:4
Be well my friend.
That’s part of it. But it is an outward sign of obedience to Hashem, just like keeping the Shabbat, kosher, wearing tzitzit, tefilllin, etc. If stiff-necked is associated with not obeying Hashem’s commandments, then why do Christians teach that we do not have to obey them since we are constantly warned about this from the prophets, Zech 7:12? I think I quoted your verses above in my initial post already.
#4
Only one way with the New Covenant, the Old has passed away.
Mark 16:16
[b]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
[/b

Yeshua God's Messiah said it. So there is nothing to argue with. If you don't believe than your damned and will find out when you die.
#5
(02-06-2014, 03:55 PM)Tanachreader Wrote: Only one way with the New Covenant, the Old has passed away.
Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


Yeshua God's Messiah said it. So there is nothing to argue with. If you don't believe than your damned and will find out when you die.
Baptized/immersed in the spirit means following Torah, Ezek 36:26-27. There is surely life in Torah, Psalms 119:142, Prov 6:23, Psalms 19:7. Are you saved by baptism? That's "works" isn't it?

I believe the words of Hashem and His Torah. Salvation belongs to Hashem, not a man, Psalms 60:11, Psalms 108:12, Psalms 146:3.

Return to Israel and to your roots. Do not be cut-off any longer. If you're not part of the covenant and following Torah, then even your "passover lamb" doesn't apply to you. Circumcised of heart = following Torah (which includes physical circumcision as well).

Return...Do Shuva.
#6
(02-06-2014, 04:41 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(02-06-2014, 03:55 PM)Tanachreader Wrote: Only one way with the New Covenant, the Old has passed away.
Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


Yeshua God's Messiah said it. So there is nothing to argue with. If you don't believe than your damned and will find out when you die.
Baptized/immersed in the spirit means following Torah, Ezek 36:26-27. There is surely life in Torah, Psalms 119:142, Prov 6:23, Psalms 19:7. Are you saved by baptism? That's "works" isn't it?

I believe the words of Hashem and His Torah. Salvation belongs to Hashem, not a man, Psalms 60:11, Psalms 108:12, Psalms 146:3.

Return to Israel and to your roots. Do not be cut-off any longer. If you're not part of the covenant and following Torah, then even your "passover lamb" doesn't apply to you. Circumcised of heart = following Torah (which includes physical circumcision as well).

Return...Do Shuva.
Again you don't believe God or the Prophets.
Jer:31:31: Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer:31:32: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
The new covenant is spoken about first in the book of Jeremiah. The old covenant that God had established with His people required obedience to the Old Testament Mosaic law. Because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), the law required that people perform rituals and sacrifices in order to please God and remain in His grace. The prophet Jeremiah predicted that there would be a time when God would make a new covenant with the nation of Israel.

New Covenant
Luke 22:20
20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

I follow God and not man as you do. You have to much to lose!
#7
(02-07-2014, 10:54 AM)Tanachreader Wrote: Again you don't believe God or the Prophets.
Do you follow these words, Zech 7:12? By the way, Hashem gave the laws, rituals, etc., as you said. I'm not going to argue with Him, Ezek 36:26-27, or His spirit.
#8
(02-07-2014, 11:38 AM)Nachshon Wrote:
(02-07-2014, 10:54 AM)Tanachreader Wrote: Again you don't believe God or the Prophets.
Do you follow these words, Zech 7:12? By the way, Hashem gave the laws, rituals, etc., as you said. I'm not going to argue with Him, Ezek 36:26-27, or His spirit.
The Old Covenant is dead, argue with Jeremiah.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you...Matthew 28:19-2

Jesus is the Word of God and I walk with Him.
#9
(02-07-2014, 12:42 PM)Tanachreader Wrote:
(02-07-2014, 11:38 AM)Nachshon Wrote:
(02-07-2014, 10:54 AM)Tanachreader Wrote: Again you don't believe God or the Prophets.
Do you follow these words, Zech 7:12? By the way, Hashem gave the laws, rituals, etc., as you said. I'm not going to argue with Him, Ezek 36:26-27, or His spirit.
The Old Covenant is dead, argue with Jeremiah.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you...Matthew 28:19-2

Jesus is the Word of God and I walk with Him.
It's not dead at all, Ezek 36:26-27, Zech 7:12. Be consistent.
#10
(02-07-2014, 12:53 PM)Nachshon Wrote:
(02-07-2014, 12:42 PM)Tanachreader Wrote:
(02-07-2014, 11:38 AM)Nachshon Wrote:
(02-07-2014, 10:54 AM)Tanachreader Wrote: Again you don't believe God or the Prophets.
Do you follow these words, Zech 7:12? By the way, Hashem gave the laws, rituals, etc., as you said. I'm not going to argue with Him, Ezek 36:26-27, or His spirit.
The Old Covenant is dead, argue with Jeremiah.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you...Matthew 28:19-2

Jesus is the Word of God and I walk with Him.
It's not dead at all, Ezek 36:26-27, Zech 7:12. Be consistent.
That is what I have and do!
Eze:36:26: A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze:36:27: And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Eze:36:23: And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, [b]which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. [/b]

HIS NAME IS YESHUA!


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